George Monbiot, Guardian, this morning

ronib

Israel has every right to exist.

No one is arguing about that, but so have the Palestinians and all the problems in the area are six of one and half a dozen of the other. I have nopt itme for either side I think they are each as bad as each other.

Israel has every right to exist.

Caleo

undines

It is not just oil, it's the Greater Israel Project, driven by Netanyahu. Biblical underpinnings, not the fault of Israelis, most of whom just want peace.

I can't believe that Netanyahu ( or Trump) are so superstitious as to believe in Biblical sources to justify Zionism.

Of course they do. That is what drives the Israel project. Do not forget how powerful orthodox jewry is in Israel. Until this year young orthodox men were excused from any miitary service because they had devoted ther life to studying the Torah.

That has been changed and they now have to do 'national service' What Netanyahu believes apart from driving the Palestinians into the sea, is a moot point. As for Trump, he believes 20 contradictory things a day and cannot remember them the next.

undines

It is not just oil, it's the Greater Israel Project, driven by Netanyahu. Biblical underpinnings, not the fault of Israelis, most of whom just want peace.

I can't believe that Netanyahu ( or Trump) are so superstitious as to believe in Biblical sources to justify Zionism.

Iran is a super energy powerhouse and has an over abundance of oil and natural gas. Israel has no problems with sourcing oil and recently began exporting its own abundant natural gas. No scarcity of resources.

WithNobsOnIt

Caleo

Thanks Maizie. If a summary is helpful---

Wars are deliberately driven by the need to secure oil

Governments act on behalf of oil corporations

Defence contractors and energy companies form a coordinated bloc of influence

Conflicts (especially in the Middle East) are mainly about controlling resources like oil

Absolutely spot on.

Spot on.

No, of course it is not the sole cause of conflict:

but it is extremely significant

Its not just the Middle East either, its Russia as well:

bombing a field of solar panels or a wind farms or wave power doesn't quite have the results of bombing oil facilities, does it

....and.... it doesn't have to travel halfway round the world!

Seen in the context of Israel and Iran, both with separate land masses, but completely different ideologies, I don’t see that the scarce resources argument holds. Monica

SueEH

Wars are about territory. Always have been and always will be.

Yes territory and the command of scarce resources.

Humans since they came into being have had to fight for survival. It is hard wired into us. We must constantly seek and grasp to ensure we have enough resources to keep alive long ennough to reproduce.

These wars are merely an expression of this basic human drive.

Wars are about territory. Always have been and always will be.

It is not just oil, it's the Greater Israel Project, driven by Netanyahu. Biblical underpinnings, not the fault of Israelis, most of whom just want peace.

Nuclear might be a modest contributor, but it isn't a solution to the need to eliminate CO2 emissions. In 2008 it was suggested that we should have 8 new nuclear power stations. How many will we have 20 years later? None. It will be at least 2030 before Hinckley Point C contributes any electricity to the grid. And when it does, the price will be around 50% higher than the current (already high) wholesale price of electricity. A new nuclear station at Sizewell is creating serious problems over the availability of clean water in the dry East of England. Nuclear is not an easy option. Fluctuating renewables can be accommodated by as wide a mix of locations as possible, along with exchange deals with other countries that have hydro, notably Norway. A small amount of fossil fuels can provide the final top up.

I disagree that wars would stop, most of the time its about power and greed, literally always money orientated one way or another, Trump, his family and his friends are currently making billions out of this.......

loopyloo

They have been fighting in the Middle East for 3 thousand years.
If its not oil it will be something else.
Usually territory.

..and a relentless determination to wipe each other from the face of the earth. Both súdes reaffirm their intentions with every attack and counter attack. Let theetsvsfaybm get on with it and lets stay the

War has been going on for thousands of years for land,religion, precious metals, minerals. Yes, there are options now not to use oil but the destruction and pollution of natural resources to obtain these is horrific eg lithium for batteries. Solar panels, wind turbines only have a life expectancy of 20/25 years then there is the issue of disposal. We seem to solve one problem then create another.

Caleo

Thanks Maizie. If a summary is helpful---

Wars are deliberately driven by the need to secure oil

Governments act on behalf of oil corporations

Defence contractors and energy companies form a coordinated bloc of influence

Conflicts (especially in the Middle East) are mainly about controlling resources like oil

Absolutely spot on.

Caleo

M0nica

This is the problem.

"The Problem". is how intelligent persons like you MOnika, are so enthralled by capitalist propaganda.

Caleo I think for myself and reach my own conclusions. Given your post I can only conclude you do not.

GRAMERCY - just because people have a different view to yours, they are not "stupid". I'm not a student but I used to be many years ago and my opinions were just as valid as anyone else's. There are plenty of "polictical manipulators" taking opposing views to Mr Monbiot.

Caleo

M0nica

This is the problem.

"The Problem". is how intelligent persons like you MOnika, are so enthralled by capitalist propaganda.

How very rude!
I would say that the problem is anyone being enthralled by George Monbiot.
….and that M0nica is correct in her comments.

Well said MaisieD

M0nica

Caleo

Thanks Maizie. If a summary is helpful---

Wars are deliberately driven by the need to secure oil

Governments act on behalf of oil corporations

Defence contractors and energy companies form a coordinated bloc of influence

Conflicts (especially in the Middle East) are mainly about controlling resources like oil

Only 20% of the world's oil goes through the Straits of Hormuz, so lets get this all in perspective. Yes, it is a significant amount but not an economy destroyer. Oil and gas come from many areas of the world including US itself, South-east Asia, Venezuela and other South American countries, UK and Norway. All these countries can up their output, and probably will

On green energy. uite simply, much of the technology to effective harvest the weather has only been developed in the last 20 years. Wind turbines were around but they were by modern standards grossly under powered. It has taken over 30 years from the first effective wind turbine to the current high output turbines that are installed now. The same with solar energy.

To blame all conflict on getting hold of oil and the companies behind it is ridiculous. What advantage does the oil industry get from Trump bombing Iran? It has only become and oil war because the Iranians very sensibly countered Trumps bombing by shutting the Straits of Hormuz.

Why is Trump bombing Iran? Who knows, but the main reasons are likely to be the desire to stop it developing nuclear weapons and, a reasonable, if not accepteable reason, that Hamas and Hezbullah and many other terrorist groups opposed to Israel and the US could not operate without Iranian funding. Another reason is that Trump is in thrall to Israel and Netanyahu and is doing its bidding. Why?, who knows? Trump is the lunatic running the assylum, who knows how the thought processes function in his befuddled mind.

Polanski, Monbiot and their minions are very clever political manipulators. Blaming everything on oil is a nice simplistic argument that doesn't bear much examination.

Thank goodness there is someone with common sense on this thread. I sometimes think Gransnet has been taken over by students judging by the very stupid remarks I see.

M0nica

This is the problem.

"The Problem". is how intelligent persons like you MOnika, are so enthralled by capitalist propaganda.

This is the problem.

George Monbiot was on Question Time recently. He was so eloquent and no-one on the panel could disagree with him. He also got a lot of support from the audience.

Maizie Looking at 19th and 20th C history it amazes me that Western/European countries have always felt that they had the right to carve up the world into countries, and change regimes by force, to suit their convenience and pockets

It is not specific to Western European countries, every empire since the beginning of time has felt they have the right to carve the worldup into countries and change regimes by force

Whether you are talking about (ancient and modern) China, the Mongols, various Indian groups, in Africa, and so on and so on. Where you have people they vie for power and the winner takes over the loser and tries to turn them into a pale version of the conueror.

Oldfrill 16.26.

Granted- plastics make up 11-16% wind turbines, about 10% of solar panels and of course play a role in EVs and in plastic pipes used in energy infrastructure as plastic is light, durable and improves performance. But plastic usage in green technology remains a small percentage of global plastic which is still dominated by packaging - 38% and construction 23%.

I think approximately 4% to 6% of crude oil is used to make plastics in Europe and 4- 8% of crude oil is used directly as raw material and for energy to produce plastics globally.