Junior Doctors strike

Luckygirl those consultants are falling behind on the cases that are their normal workload, so in the end, there’ll be a massive traffic jam of patients if there are few resident doctors. It’s not a sustainable system.

Dickens, exactly that. Positions are left unfilled until the next budgetary year or they’re filled with temporary contact doctors. Some positions where the holder has gone on maternity leave are left unfilled until they return. Some positions they decide they can do without or they just refer patients on to another area. In Scotland there is currently just one consultant in the entire country for a particular children’s speciality. Despite the assertions from some, doctors don’t want to move to Scotland because they know while pay might be higher, they’ll also pay taxes far in excess of south of the border. There’s a huge recruitment issue in Scotland.

My dd confessed to me last night that she frequently faints when she is working in hospitals due to lack of time to eat, drink or go to the loo. I was horrified at that. She never faints outside work.

I don’t know. But my guess would be budgetary.

Newer should read fewer.

Interesting report this morning that the strike actually improved patient care in A&E departments because experienced consultants were drafted to the front line and were able to take definitive decisions. They ordered fewer tests than the "risk averse" (understandably) more junior doctors. They knew what was serious and what was not and got people through quickly without having to go through a chain of consulting more senior staff thus increasing wait times.
It might also have related to newer patients presenting of course.
Downsides of course are high cost and loss of the necessary opportunities for new doctors to learn.

Whitewavemark2

Met a cousin for lunch yesterday, whose daughter is at present a resident doctor training in oncology - later expects to specialise.

She was a young trainee doctor at the time of covid and spent much of her first year watching people die and working until exhausted. She later spent a couple of years in Australia because finding work in U.K. was not easy, before returning to the U.K. in order to specialise.

She has over £100000 loan. Every exam she takes of which there are many costs over £1000. She works long hours and there is time given - often unpaid. She doesn’t complain, but does consider that she is not paid fairly for her skills and dedication. Of course eventually she will benefit from her studying and specialism.

I think it helps to see the other side.

Thanks for an interesting take on the issue WWM2.

Why, when there appears to be a dearth of doctors in various sections/departments of the NHS - is it so difficult for them to find work?

Is it that these positions are just not being opened-up - say a department might, for example, need 2 JDs - but due to policy or budget constraints, are only allowed one doctor? Kind of thing?

Met a cousin for lunch yesterday, whose daughter is at present a resident doctor training in oncology - later expects to specialise.

She was a young trainee doctor at the time of covid and spent much of her first year watching people die and working until exhausted. She later spent a couple of years in Australia because finding work in U.K. was not easy, before returning to the U.K. in order to specialise.

She has over £100000 loan. Every exam she takes of which there are many costs over £1000. She works long hours and there is time given - often unpaid. She doesn’t complain, but does consider that she is not paid fairly for her skills and dedication. Of course eventually she will benefit from her studying and specialism.

I think it helps to see the other side.

The striking doctors don’t seem to have had much effect so far and aren’t much in the news either.

They were philanthropic during Covid...it didn't get them very far, Beans12.

So Sorry Primrose, I lost my lovely brother to this cancer last year, I would be furious if someone I loved was caught up in the doctor's strike-they are being greedy and ridiculous, and it is hurting the people that it shouldn't-why should sick patients suffer because of their demands-I feel like slapping the mob outside my local hospital; they presumably didn't become doctors for the money, but to help people? Where has that philanthropy gone??

Paddyann 'They' are not 'hanging on' to Scotland. The Scottish people voted to stay in the UK. 'They' are honouring what the population actually voted for.

To be fair, SueDonim, I wouldn't have realised how difficult it was until relatively recently when my son became involved with a trainee Dr. It was only when she came to the end of her time at University, we realised how difficult it was for her and others. Many in her class didn't get an F1 place and now the F2's who finished at her Hospital have no jobs to go to. She was down to do a research placement but after she started, they withdrew funding. The NHS need research done to further medical knowledge so it is definitely a backward step.

I’m glad a few people are defending resident doctors. I don’t have the bandwidth to write at length but the situation isn’t as it appears in the press. The much-mooted training positions aren’t new jobs, they’re other jobs that have been relabelled and are short term contracts. Junior drs also have a lot of expenses as they often have to move two or three times a year and are simply told where their next job is, there is no choice. No matter if you are sent to an area of high rents or your partner also has a job. You may have children settled in childcare or school but they have to go too. This is an increasingly common scenario because the government has encouraged postgraduate trainees who may have an established family life.

As for other professions who are paid differently - they are perfectly entitled to fight for better pay and conditions, too.

Aveline

Can I just point out to paddyann54 that the Scottish government have unfortunately not worked out how they can pay the rises that they've promised the doctors. In the doomsday scenario that SNP get re elected this will be a massive headache for them or, more likely, the beleaguered tax payers who already pay more than they do in England.

Aveline that’s how many businesses work,in fact the most successful man we know used to tell us say yes ,keep things going and find a way to do what they ask…he sold his business in 1984 for £1,4 BILLION .
Not everything needs to be e planned to the nth degree before negotiations are completed .
The fact that previous rises have been honoured is a clue to how this will go.
As to not being “allowed” an opinion on Westminster or strikes…well there is a solution…if we are such a burden to them why do they insist on hanging on to us!
While WM uses its veto on Scottish policies and we are subject to English votes on English laws courtesy of Cameron .We are entitled to voice our opinions where and when we want .
If that offends you feel free to vote for English independence

Oh here we go again. Another big it up for Scotland. We treat our people and Doctors better than the English

If so. Why are still part of the UK?
Why do nearly 800,000 Scots live in
England ?

Because the canny Scots know which side their bread is buttered by.

Your last referendum on Independence did not go very well did it?

Get a life..

There are no ‘sweeteners’ for those starting out, Wendy28 and certainly none for those at the end of their 2 year residencies. You don’t need to sweeten appointments when there aren’t enough jobs to go round.

Sorry it was meant to read’ they don’t enter the profession to become rich’ (and they really do know that) but I think they do expect some respect of their skills, knowledge and experience.

I so sorry you had this issue.

But JD now have a very good salary with quite a good bump up the chain. What people don't realise is its not just the JD getting a salary increase its everybody in the NHS on the same band will also get it!

We can't afford another rise and yes they do have debts, but when applying for jobs they often get a "sweetener" in some roles and areas.

I am all for the NHS a decent salary but its coming from our pocket.

Enough is enough now with the strikes I have no sympathy left for them and the strain they are putting on work colleagues, health and safety out the window for them.

I have great sympathy for the Drs just starting out on their career paths. Many are without jobs having trained for 5 years. Those who do get a job are sent to wherever without regard to their living circumstances. Having children or a partner is not taken into account. Then, after 2 years of being an F1 and F2, your contract ends and you can end up unemployed again! Oh, and in the middle of a pandemic, you have to carry on regardless of how crappily you were treated. This is just no way to treat hard working, professionals.
I think the Government have been completely short sighted withdrawing what was on the table if the strike took place. Either we need more training places or we don't. If we need them, they should be on the table, if we don't, they shouldn't have been offered.
Hospitals and Surgeries are crying out for staff because of the drain of Doctors to better working conditions in other countries. A friend of mine couldn't get into an English training school so went abroad to do the training. It cost him much less than Dr's here and now he has qualified, he is gets a much better salary where he is. He was going to come back to England after finishing his training but having looked at the working conditions, he decided to stay put.
Quite frankly, it is a disgrace.

OOPS Not deite - Desire!

Attitudes have changed, haven't they. For most of my life it was taken for granted that those who became doctors had chosen to be so, because they had a dedication to and/or vocation/ deite to become a doctor. Hence they would be reluctant to strike, knowing how detrimental that could be to patients.

Now, there are a lot of families who encourage their offspring to become doctors, knowing that they will earn, not only prestige, but a good and reliable salary.

They aren't the only ones coming out of university owing thousands!

They know the pay scale, the student loans, the exam fees involved when they apply to university for a medical degree. Medical students have to be v good at maths.
If they don't want the pay and the debts don't become a doctor. And sack this shower who are on strike

Junior doctor is very misleading indeed. My daughter has done 12 post qualification and still not a consultant. She has had numerous difficult exams to pass, each costing nearly £1k and a 38% pass rate in the last one. They are treated so badly, it is NOT just about pay. The hours are long and not all
Overtime is paid. She can sue an all night on a 13 hour Night Shift in theatres operating, , without so much as a tea or coffee break. I don’t think you would want an airline pilot flying your plane with no pleasing or fluid intake, yet that is common place in hospital. She has no locker to keep her clothes when she goes into theatre and often has to resort putting her clothes on the floor with her valuables in the changing room.
In some departments overnight where work dictates they are not able to leave to go to the canteen, there are no facilities to even have a hot meal on the ward or unit that they are on.
Her pay increase has been very minor considering the seniority and expectations of her job and absolutely not all overtime is paid. If there is an emergency and she has to stay on for five or six hours after her shift that is unpaid. I don’t think you would find that in many other jobs.
Training places have been greatly reduced and ward teaching is not available like it was a few years ago. She has a young family and comes home after a busy 12 hour day to then spend many hours in front of the computer, all work and learning related.
There is always another side to the story, but the press of course only want to make out that it is pay related. No doctor went into
The profession to become rich, these is because they genuinely want to care and help. But the pay and conditions do certainly not match the amount of time effort and strain these people are under.

I don't think anyone in the country has any support for them after the last increase they got…They're trying it on now encouraged by the BMA…

Doctors, Junior or otherwise, are aware of the hours and the pay when they start the job. Starting pay £38k rising to £74k, plus overtime, plus enhanced pay for night shifts.

I think striking for more pay when nurses are on a pittance is selfish and obviously puts peoples lives at risk. Afterall, they studied for years to do a job that helps and cures people, not hold them hostage for more pay.