Weimar, Life on the edge of catastophe

Oreo

foxie48
The other day you seemed very keen on explaining to us all how chanting ‘globalise the intifada’ was quite alright, even tho the government and police view it as wrong and arrest anyone who’s chanting or carrying a placard ( at least in theory as very few seem to be arrested.) Why do they view it that way and you do not?
The reason they view it as wrong is that it not only inflames the situation but acts as a catalyst for insults and attacks on Jews.
You know, the Jews who live here.
The Muslim population of the UK is now very large and the Jewish population is small. It doesn’t take much for the blame on any ills is blamed on us.

Who's blaming ills on you? Frankly, that seems a tad paranoid.

Yes, the notional Muslim population is larger than the Jewish population, but there's no need to see them all as "enemies". people don't spend their lives engaging in tribal warfare.

There are good and bad Muslims and Jews everywhere - just as there are good and bad people of any or no faith - and a heck of a lot of people who are a mix of bad and good and are called humans.

Oreo You are conflating support for Palestinians and criticism of the Israeli government with anti semitism. It is not the same. And no, I didn't say anything of the kind, please go back and read what I wrote properly instead of putting your own spin on it.

twaddle

Whitewavemark2

AfD are getting in on a tide of hate towards asylum seekers, or indeed immigrants.

They have a policy - rather like Reform if mass deportation, and in their case even German citizens who are Muslim.

It is shocking.

The dividing line in German politics is interesting. Generally, it runs along the line which used to be the border between West and East Germany.

There are a number of reasons for that.

Firstly, East Germany didn't experience the massive de-Nazification project of the West, which was successful in changing the mindset of West Germans.

Secondly, re-unification was a double-edged sword for East Germany. Yes, they had more freedom, but East Germans lost a lot which they had taken for granted. For example, guaranteed employment, free childcare and cheap housing. After re-unification, East German public servants had worse pay and conditions than West Germans. Some East German businesses and factories were closed down because they hadn't been modernised for years and were deemed unprofitable.

East Germans resented the "Wessies" and still feel they are treated as second class citizens. There is a population drift away from the more deprived areas in the East and this is where many immigrants have ended up. Naturally, there is suspicion and scapegoating.

That is so interesting. Just like the old mining areas in the U.K. in many respects, where reform attracts the most votes.

I think that there has definitely been recognition of “the left behind” but what is lacking are the real policies that will make a difference.

Meanwhile we have politicians who are more than willing to exploit the folk living in these areas of relative deprivation for their own ends, and doing so successfully. I have yet to see policies that will made a real difference to those people.

foxie48

Oreo You are conflating support for Palestinians and criticism of the Israeli government with anti semitism. It is not the same. And no, I didn't say anything of the kind, please go back and read what I wrote properly instead of putting your own spin on it.

I read it loud and clear thanks the first time.You concluded that there was nothing wrong in chanting it.

twaddle

Oreo

foxie48
The other day you seemed very keen on explaining to us all how chanting ‘globalise the intifada’ was quite alright, even tho the government and police view it as wrong and arrest anyone who’s chanting or carrying a placard ( at least in theory as very few seem to be arrested.) Why do they view it that way and you do not?
The reason they view it as wrong is that it not only inflames the situation but acts as a catalyst for insults and attacks on Jews.
You know, the Jews who live here.
The Muslim population of the UK is now very large and the Jewish population is small. It doesn’t take much for the blame on any ills is blamed on us.

Who's blaming ills on you? Frankly, that seems a tad paranoid.

Yes, the notional Muslim population is larger than the Jewish population, but there's no need to see them all as "enemies". people don't spend their lives engaging in tribal warfare.

There are good and bad Muslims and Jews everywhere - just as there are good and bad people of any or no faith - and a heck of a lot of people who are a mix of bad and good and are called humans.

A tad paranoid…..hmmm perhaps you have missed the attacks on Jews.

Oreo

foxie48

Oreo You are conflating support for Palestinians and criticism of the Israeli government with anti semitism. It is not the same. And no, I didn't say anything of the kind, please go back and read what I wrote properly instead of putting your own spin on it.

I read it loud and clear thanks the first time.You concluded that there was nothing wrong in chanting it.

"What does "global intifada" actually mean? Intifada means opposing the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory and adding global to it is basically asking the rest of the world to support the Palestinians in their struggle against oppression by Israel. It is not inherently anti semitic because it is the country Israel not Jewish people that is doing the oppression. I have absolutely no issue with supporting the intifada, what Israel has done in Gaza and the West Bank surely cannot be acceptable to any right minded people."

This is what I wrote Oreo

Exactly foxie48 and as I have just said, you concluded there was nothing wrong with it.
The government and police take a different view thank goodness.
It’s beyond naive of you to think it’s a harmless chant.

It’s asking the rest of the world to hate Jews and oppose the very being of the State of Israel.

It’s ironic that on a thread about the rise of the Nazi Party there is so little thought for Jews everywhere.

I haven't been following it, foxie.
Hope it's not too late to catch up.
Thanks for letting us know about it.

Maremia

I haven't been following it, foxie.
Hope it's not too late to catch up.
Thanks for letting us know about it.

It's on BBC Sounds and you can start at the beginning. I don't know how long it will be there.

Thanks twadle, will have a go.

I found it fascinating, so well researched, written and read. I was tempted to buy the book on audible, but it's a different reader and not as good (IMHO)

Intifada means struggle. It has been used by the Palestinians to mean violent overthrow. There may be some who agree with that but it is disingenuous to think/say that globalise the intifada just means supporting the Palestinians in their struggle against oppression. The evidence is that it has led to terrorist attacks against Jews who cannot control or influence the Israeli government.

Is it a long listen?
Just working out when to fit it in.

Seems to me an awful lot of hatred comes from the so-called liberal left, towards anyone who does not share their views. Seems to me we could also do with a documentary on the rise of communism. Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

silverlining48

Yes I have been listening to it. It is worth a listen and would certainly be a lesson learned.

Me too.
Thoroughly enjoying this and learning a lot also.

undines

Seems to me an awful lot of hatred comes from the so-called liberal left, towards anyone who does not share their views. Seems to me we could also do with a documentary on the rise of communism. Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

The hatred in 1930s Germany didn't come from the liberal left. Maybe you should listen to the programmes. Even if Stalin was responsible for more deaths than Hitler (which is debatable) the 6 million Jews (and others) whom Hitler killed shouldn't ever be forgotten. It's important that people understand the background to the holocaust. Germany was a civilised country, so the question is how did the people allow such atrocities to happen ... and could it happen again?

Stalin...liberal left?
Nope.
Genocidal dictator.
Not anyone's definition of liberal.

Er Stalin was left wing.

Was Stalin 'liberal'?
Liberal was part of the description upthread.
Stalin used the system he inherited, to his own advantage.
Do you think Stalin was 'liberal'?

Galaxy

Er Stalin was left wing.

Really?

He might have defined himself as "left wing" ie communist, but he most certainly wasn't liberal in any way.

Oreo

twaddle

Oreo

foxie48
The other day you seemed very keen on explaining to us all how chanting ‘globalise the intifada’ was quite alright, even tho the government and police view it as wrong and arrest anyone who’s chanting or carrying a placard ( at least in theory as very few seem to be arrested.) Why do they view it that way and you do not?
The reason they view it as wrong is that it not only inflames the situation but acts as a catalyst for insults and attacks on Jews.
You know, the Jews who live here.
The Muslim population of the UK is now very large and the Jewish population is small. It doesn’t take much for the blame on any ills is blamed on us.

Who's blaming ills on you? Frankly, that seems a tad paranoid.

Yes, the notional Muslim population is larger than the Jewish population, but there's no need to see them all as "enemies". people don't spend their lives engaging in tribal warfare.

There are good and bad Muslims and Jews everywhere - just as there are good and bad people of any or no faith - and a heck of a lot of people who are a mix of bad and good and are called humans.

A tad paranoid…..hmmm perhaps you have missed the attacks on Jews.

No, I haven't missed any attacks. What I have apparently missed (according to you) is blaming Jews for any ills.

undines

Seems to me an awful lot of hatred comes from the so-called liberal left, towards anyone who does not share their views. Seems to me we could also do with a documentary on the rise of communism. Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

Are you suggesting people should support Hitler's views and actions?

This seems like a distraction from the point of the OP. The book is about the circumstances leading up to the persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany.

Surely hatred of other people is totally wrong wherever or at whosoever it is directed? Hatred of Jews is IMO no different to hatred of Muslims, the oppression of Palestinians is no different to the oppression of Uyghurs or any other ethnic group, genocide is always wrong wherever it happens. There's no hierarchy of pain and suffering as we are all humans with similar feelings. I don't care if an oppressive state is fascist or totalitarian, on the right or the left, has a dictator or an organised repressive regime, they are all wrong and every right minded person should be able to recognise that.