Women are a minority view so should be disregarded

I know, and I'm not disagreeing, just saying that if we don't give some grace we are going to be without anyone who's deemed fit to do much. Alternatively, we could look to people who did stand up to the zeitgeist on trans issues, but aren't otherwise suited to power.

Remember it was the Tories who let Stonewall do what they did, and Labour were in opposition. How could they argue against Tory policies and run an election campaign whilst simultaneously fighting a rearguard action against Stonewall, which also had unions in its thrall?

I'm not excusing it, more trying to explain it as I see it, I suppose.

Don’t get me started.

I do understand doodledog because if we don't let people 'recant' we are just going around in purity circles. But then part of me thinks well that's just another way of telling wonen to 'be kind'. I think they may just have to put up with a number of us fuming for some time.

Galaxy

I do understand doodledog because if we don't let people 'recant' we are just going around in purity circles. But then part of me thinks well that's just another way of telling wonen to 'be kind'. I think they may just have to put up with a number of us fuming for some time.

I echo your sentiments.

Additionally, with the rise of the toxic masculinity - and it is toxic - of the manosphere; I think those days of women "being kind" in fact need to be over.

Dickens

Galaxy

I do understand doodledog because if we don't let people 'recant' we are just going around in purity circles. But then part of me thinks well that's just another way of telling wonen to 'be kind'. I think they may just have to put up with a number of us fuming for some time.

I echo your sentiments.

Additionally, with the rise of the toxic masculinity - and it is toxic - of the manosphere; I think those days of women "being kind" in fact need to be over.

Absolutely - we tried the whole 'be kind' thing and look where that's got us. When you have trans activists peeing (and worse) on statues and public places to 'reclaim their territory' and brandishing signs which say things like 'decapitate TERFS', then it seems that the whole 'be kind' movement was just a one-way street. Do we really want ourselves, our daughters and our granddaughters sharing toilet space with people like that?

Andy Burnham Did recant in terms of saying he accepted the ruling, but then he did the politician thing and added a rider that didn’t support what he was saying.
He could have said for example, that he supported women’s rights to male-free spaces/sports etc. so he was going to put effort into providing alternative facilities for trans.
Instead he said something which we all know would once again put women in the position of doing the letting live.

Doodledog

I know, and I'm not disagreeing, just saying that if we don't give some grace we are going to be without anyone who's deemed fit to do much. Alternatively, we could look to people who did stand up to the zeitgeist on trans issues, but aren't otherwise suited to power.

Remember it was the Tories who let Stonewall do what they did, and Labour were in opposition. How could they argue against Tory policies and run an election campaign whilst simultaneously fighting a rearguard action against Stonewall, which also had unions in its thrall?

I'm not excusing it, more trying to explain it as I see it, I suppose.

Left have always tried to stand up for minorities (ideologially if not always practically - Unions not great).

How could they oppose Stonewall's pronouncement when Tories supporting it? They only could once some brave women starting objecting that some of Stonewall's "advice" impacted on Women's rights and safety & entitlement to same-sex spaces.

Women were subject to awful discrimination once - don't be too quick to condemn those who (without much experience of the subject but relying on advice from those with 'lived experience' ie Stonewall) were trying to ensure transpersons didn't suffer discrimination.

Most were probably of the view that the High Court ruling was commonsense, but they couldn't publicly support that until the ruling.

Women were subject to awful discrimination once and under Stonewall and their political allies they have been subjected to discrimination for the past few years. Lesbians who used to be told by heterosexual men that all they needed was 'a good seeing to' were now told by Stonewall and their ilk that if they didn't accept 'lesbians' with a penis they were being transphobic bigots. Women who fought hard for their own sports categories, refuges, changing rooms, safe spaces were vilified for not wanting to share these spaces with men who identified as women.
Most were probably of the view that the High Court ruling was commonsense, but they couldn't publicly support that until the ruling.
Being a coward is not that good a recommendation for a position in public life where you have influence on the lives of others. What other lies will they fail to call out because to do so would jeopardise their own position? Never forget some who are now going quiet openly and enthusiastically supported the whole fiasco.

x.com/colwight/status/2058294314678313019/photo/1

and this is typical of trans activists. Other men will not accommodate these trans identified men therefore it's up to women to accommodate and protect them, no matter the cost to women and girls. Just always remember that males however they identify must come first, their needs and wants are paramount.....be kind.

Those who were around when ‘trans threads’ were a regular occurrence on here will remember that I am 100% biological realist. I don’t want men in women’s spaces and I don’t believe that someone thinking they are a different sex makes it so.

I haven’t changed my mind about any of that. I am as frustrated as anyone about the lack of support women got from anyone in power, and with the utter nonsense that was spoken.

What I am saying now is that if we want to move forward we have to allow people to change their minds and agree with us.

I 100% agree *Doodledog, I suppose I just wish there was a bit more, I don't know', acknowledgement of previous 'misjudgement'? Too many aren't prepared to acknowledge their past behaviour contributed to the problem.

I agree Doodledog

What I am saying now is that if we want to move forward we have to allow people to change their minds and agree with us.
I’d like to be more confident about your last paragraph happening.

But while we have politicians afraid of the backlash from the trans community if they (MPs) don’t support them, it’s going to be a struggle and women will remain at the bottom of the heap.

Another in agreement with Doodledog.

Doodledog

Those who were around when ‘trans threads’ were a regular occurrence on here will remember that I am 100% biological realist. I don’t want men in women’s spaces and I don’t believe that someone thinking they are a different sex makes it so.

I haven’t changed my mind about any of that. I am as frustrated as anyone about the lack of support women got from anyone in power, and with the utter nonsense that was spoken.

What I am saying now is that if we want to move forward we have to allow people to change their minds and agree with us.

👏👏👏👏

Rosie51

x.com/colwight/status/2058294314678313019/photo/1

and this is typical of trans activists. Other men will not accommodate these trans identified men therefore it's up to women to accommodate and protect them, no matter the cost to women and girls. Just always remember that males however they identify must come first, their needs and wants are paramount.....be kind.

The issue is in Owen's first comment:

If trans women use men's toilets, they will be subjected to humiliation, abuse and violence.

So the problem is - men. Men being abusive or violent.

But instead of coming down hard on such men - or considering employing a security-guard perhaps - the solution is to ask women - again - to move over / be kind / and accommodate trans women. Who are men.

And regarding the claim that that the majority of trans women are not dangerous... I'm sure this is true. But it's not the point. The point is we don't know which ones are or are not. Additionally, disregarding the safety issue - maybe we just don't want men observing us, looking at us in toilets and changing rooms?

Are women with Gender Critical views allowed to comment on Gransnet ? Asking as I haven’t posted for years. Most FB pages will just block you.

Yes Mumsnet who own the site have always been supportive of gender critical views.

Or rather they support the right to speak about those views.

Providing I have privacy in the toilet or changing room then I don't mind if trans women use the ladies and trans men use the gents or if trans women use the gents and trans men use the ladies. I can see men might worry more as urinals don't offer much privacy.

I suspect women might worry more, as biologically intact heterosexual males in spaces where women are undressed are able to do far more harm to them than (most) women can, or are inclined to do to (most) men. As, of course, are gay or bisexual men, but most male on female sex crimes are committed by straight ones.

Also, as has been said, much depends on what you mean by 'transwomen' and transmen'. If it's someone who says they are the opposite sex, then anyone qualifies. Including men who have no desire to 'live as' women (whatever that means) but just want an excuse to be in spaces where they can make women feel uncomfortable and show us who is in charge, or to find vulnerable victims.

Many men might feel embarrassed about women seeing them pee in a urinal, but that bears no comparison, as far as I can see.

I think men are entitled to spaces without women, I think the behaviour of some transmen ( women) to gay men has been deeply homophobic. But the risk for women when men enter their spaces is of course different.

Which is the crux of the matter, surely?

But is Allira allowed in?

My second cousin who is trans had speech lessons in order to sound more female.

I tried everything to be understanding and friendly, however she wrongly accused me of saying something cruel about her and wouldn’t accept that this was totally untrue. She then threatened me. I was really scared and withdrew all contact. I believe she died shortly afterwards. I was very relieved as I felt safe then.

We visited a seaside town near us yesterday. There were new unisex toilets on the seafront. I think it’s a horrible idea and, quite honestly, would only use one if my DH stood somewhere nearby. I expect the other “old-fashioned” toilets (where the Ladies and Gents are totally separate) will soon be demolished. Well that’s it - I’ll be going behind the nearest bush.