Henry Nowak…….an absolute tragedy.

It’s interesting how our Prime Minister and other politicians “took the knee for George Floyd yet nothing from Starmer on the Police’s dreadful handling of this case.

Have I got this right; the police handcuffed and manhandled a man who was bleeding profusely and had difficulty breathing?

Leaving aside all other considerations, of which, of course, there are many, this in itself is outrageous in my opinion.

It should cause outrage in the same way the Nottingham murders caused outrage, because there are similarities. But unlike those, it should also cause outrage because of the Police actions and the fact they seem to have ignored the victim’s pleas until he collapsed in handcuffs.

It is not irrelevant that the murderer was legally carrying a bladed weapon in public. It is not racism to question this.

Absolutely Magenta8
I’m sorry ( & I say this as someone who has a police officer in my extended family ) but the police are bloody useless sometimes. Don’t want to derail this thread but does anyone remember the 4 young gay men who died in London all within a few feet of each other ( 2 in the exact same spot! ) the police just put it down to drug overdoses. No further investigation, nothing.
One of the victims family members finally solved the case and unmasked a serial killer.

I am assuming the police did not realise initially how ill he was and acted on the information that were given in that moment when they first arrived. It must be so hard to make an accurate assessment in a split second. It does sound as though they did all they could for him first aid wise once they realised how critical he was.

I wouldn't want to be a policeman/woman having to make these instant decisions on the spot and effectively working blind.

What a sad situation for all concerned.

And what a travesty of the law that someone can carry an offensive weapon and evade the law on the grounds of faith.

Many are contrasting this to the George Floyd case in the US. I haven’t seen anything from Keir Starmer yet although I do remember him and AR taking the knee for George Floyd who was actually a convicted criminal.

Henry looked a fine young man. May he rest in peace.

Those blades for Sikh’s must be banned now. There is now no place for them in the country. We should all be treated equally and they seem to be the only people allowed to carry knives.

Cossy

TerriBull

That poor young man and his family.

Sikhs are generally law abiding and well respected communities but there are always aberrations.

On the question of race and ethnicity what is wrong is how some schools are imbuing their pupils with the notion that only white people can be racist and will be the only demographic who commit crimes of a racist nature.

I have yet to come across a school which has done this?

Have you any credible evidence to back up your claim?

"Educational materials developed by a group of Sheffield schools The Anti Racist Education Alliance Sheffield which is anchored by the Notre Dame School - teach students that black people can be racially prejudice but that does not constitute racism. The lessons argue racism requires systemic and cultural power, which is wielded by white people"

Cossy

I can fully understand the outrage at the police actions and the handling of the case.

I cannot understand using the death of this poor young man being used to promote yet more negative feelings g towards the entire cohort of people to whom this wicked Sikh man belongs!

It’s so typical, sadly, to use this murder as an excuse to criticise Sikhs.

The perpetrator was a vile man firstly who happened to be a Sikh.

I agree with this. Sikhs are known to be kind, peaceful people. Unfortunately, there will always be the occasional 'bad apple', as there are in all demographics.

I'm sure I won't be alone in stating that this won't alter my (positive) feelings towards Sikhs.

I would also like to think that Sikhs in general will be appalled by his actions. I just hope Sikhs aren't targeted in retaliation for this.

Sago

It’s interesting how our Prime Minister and other politicians “took the knee for George Floyd yet nothing from Starmer on the Police’s dreadful handling of this case.

So you are using this awful murder to cast aspirations on other events??

Shane on you!

As you’ll be well aware the George Floyd case in the USA was one of many where white police officials damaged/hurt/killed black people and proved to be a catalyst for many people.

This does not take away from the awfulness of this murder nor the incompetence of the police in this situation and it all needs further investigation.

Floyd was murdered in 2020, Starmer was not PM at that time.

Do you genuinely believe our PM should comment on murders??

The victim's bleeding, from five stab wounds, was at first internal and not immediately apparent in the dark, but he was conscious and able to say he could not breathe, as his lungs were filling with blood; the police ignored him instead arresting and handcuffing him. The weapon has been described as an eight inch blade and also a 21 inch ceremonial dagger, but deadly enough to cause almost immediate death,

The perpetrator called the police, not an ambulance and told them he had been racially abused. He also called his parents and brother, his mother removed and concealed the weapon. The police have refused to release their body-cam footage.
There has been no public comment from Keir Starmer or the government, but apparently Elon Musk has commented.

Terribull

Thank you for this. I don’t agree this should be taught to secondary school students, however I’m afraid I do agree with the assertion of what and how racism occurs.

I understand that doesn’t make me, or the “paper” right.

The PM has overall responsibility for the governance of this country. If it’s obvious that there are failures in policing then someone needs to address them. We could start at the top?

eazybee

The victim's bleeding, from five stab wounds, was at first internal and not immediately apparent in the dark, but he was conscious and able to say he could not breathe, as his lungs were filling with blood; the police ignored him instead arresting and handcuffing him. The weapon has been described as an eight inch blade and also a 21 inch ceremonial dagger, but deadly enough to cause almost immediate death,

The perpetrator called the police, not an ambulance and told them he had been racially abused. He also called his parents and brother, his mother removed and concealed the weapon. The police have refused to release their body-cam footage.
There has been no public comment from Keir Starmer or the government, but apparently Elon Musk has commented.

It is indeed a shocking and awful case.

I think we all know why Musk will have mentioned this.

I’m not downplaying a terrible and preventative event nor the actions of the police.

Usually, the blade is hidden and Universities negotiated rules years ago for carrying one - including insisting it was a small one (3 to 4 inches), and must be completely out of sight, secured inside a cloth sheath, and stitched or zipped closed under clothing.

I have never seen a kirpan outside of a gurdwara or a museum - and even then they have been secured on display...
It is not a weapon it is a sacred article of faith symbolizing a commitment to justice, defense of the weak, and moral discipline.

This particular Sikh man is not representative of the faith.

ronib

The PM has overall responsibility for the governance of this country. If it’s obvious that there are failures in policing then someone needs to address them. We could start at the top?

Has there been a full investigation of the police actions?

I understand an apology has been offered by the police (not good enough).

Looking it up I see that there is an ongoing investigation into the police conduct with the case. Why do you think Starmer should comment on an ongoing case? It’s totally inappropriate.

It is not a weapon it is a sacred article of faith symbolising a commitment to justice, defence of the weak, and moral discipline

With respect, that’s not how the perpetrator seems to have viewed it.
During the trial, the court heard that Digwa was “skilled” with blades and had been “training with weapons since he was 12. “

And it’s hard to claim it’s “not a weapon” when somebody has been fatally (and deliberately) stabbed with it.

To some cultures losing your standing and respect in your community is just about the worst thing that can happen to you and your family. His family hid weapons and lied to police for this very reason, I should imagine.
There was a programme on this week, 'Murder on the Heath', where a Sikh man had attempted to rape a young Sikh girl. She did not report it to the police purely because her family would lose respect in their community. It resulted in tragedy for 4 families but to keep their standing was paramount.

TerriBull and Cossy I think thete is some nuance missing here.

I think, from my limited knowledge of this that the teaching is that Racial Prejudice and Racism are different.

Anyone of any racial background can hold personal prejudices, biases, or animosity toward individuals of another race based on stereotypes.

Under this curriculum's definition, Black or globally minoritised individuals can be as "racially prejudiced" as the next person.

But "Racism" (as a systemic structure) needs prejudice AND power.
Systemic and Cultural Power

This is one part of many. It can't really be taken in isolation.

Cossy

Sago

It’s interesting how our Prime Minister and other politicians “took the knee for George Floyd yet nothing from Starmer on the Police’s dreadful handling of this case.

So you are using this awful murder to cast aspirations on other events??

Shane on you!

As you’ll be well aware the George Floyd case in the USA was one of many where white police officials damaged/hurt/killed black people and proved to be a catalyst for many people.

This does not take away from the awfulness of this murder nor the incompetence of the police in this situation and it all needs further investigation.

Floyd was murdered in 2020, Starmer was not PM at that time.

Do you genuinely believe our PM should comment on murders??

Sorry Cossy but in “taking the knee” every politician, sportsperson, celebrity was “commenting on an unlawful killing” aka murder.
I feel like Sago that there has been a lot of virtue signalling which has spiralled out of one (admittedly of too many in the US) particularly shameful incident.
I’m not sure where the accusation of casting aspersions comes into it.

But this is our George Floyd moment and “sorry” won’t cut it, nor will “lessons will be learnt” or any other mealy- mouthed half hearted apologies.

Let’s not use this terrible and tragic murder as a reason to (yet again) slate Starmer and/or stir up more hatred towards communities who might not be considered traditionally “British”.

It doesn’t help the victim nor their family.

It is standard for police not to comment or show video footage publicly whilst an official investigation is taking place, likewise it would be highly inappropriate for our PM to publicly comment.

MawsRosie it is true that the kirpan was used as a weapon here.
It doesn't mean other kirpans are weapons.
A toothbrush is a deadly weapon in the hands of some.
Sadly.

This particular Sikh man is not representative of the faith.

I am absolutely sure that is true.

But the anomaly that a sikh can carry an offensive weapon and no-one else can is fundamentally wrong and needs abolishing in law.

And from my personal point of view weapons as part of a religion is in itself unacceptable but that is a wider issue.

NotSpaghetti

TerriBull and Cossy I think thete is some nuance missing here.

I think, from my limited knowledge of this that the teaching is that Racial Prejudice and Racism are different.

Anyone of any racial background can hold personal prejudices, biases, or animosity toward individuals of another race based on stereotypes.

Under this curriculum's definition, Black or globally minoritised individuals can be as "racially prejudiced" as the next person.

But "Racism" (as a systemic structure) needs prejudice AND power.
Systemic and Cultural Power

This is one part of many. It can't really be taken in isolation.

Continually carping on about cultural power, generally historic held by the few not the many is another tool to divide us with. I agree that certain races have and still suffer prejudice. Nevertheless it is often reported that right at the bottom of society's heap these days are white working class boys.

Not wishing to digress from the main thrust of this thread, there have been occasions when the white demographic have been on the end of systemic racism, look no further than the grooming gangs, where certain bodies deemed that the enquiry should encompass all sexual grooming and assaults. Causing much distress amongst the victims in the obfuscation of crimes that were, in their cases, specific to one demographic.

What I've read on this site on numerous occasions when that subject comes up, there's a "you don't care about sexual assaults committed by white men and boys" I think the outrage that many have expressed around the Fordingbridge rape and the non custodial sentences prove that assertion is absolutely not true. The appalling murder of Sarah Everard saw vigils like never seen before.

TerriBull I was simply exploring something of the context - as I understand it - re the materials you quoted.

That's all.
Apologies if it didn't sound like that.

MawsRosie

I totally agree this whole awful murder was mismanaged by the police, covered up by the perpetrator and his mother and the poor victim and his family had done nothing wrong, I also fully endorse a full investigation.

I am afraid I have to disagree that this is the “UK” George Floyd moment.

It is an opportunity to question (yet again) our failing police procedures and to try and put right the wrongs within our own police force and local communities.

It’s an awful, pointless loss of life and this Sikhs mother should be brought to task and his brother.

I understand she’s also been charged and sentencing for both of them will take place during the next week.