Makerfield: Reform candidate sexist?

^ The sad fact is that the Left despises and patronises the people they describe as 'working class' and who theoretically they want to free^

Some examples would be helpful, MOnica. Who is ‘the left’ and how have they despised and patronised ‘the working class’?

There are so many unsubstantiated accusations being thrown around in this conversation. It does seem to be giving the impression that being labelled as ‘left’ is every bit as insulting as the right intend it to be.

Who is fuelling the 'deep malaise' in this country?
Who wants the Reform Limited Company to succeed?
From which sources do 'unhappy' people get their catch phrases/sound bites?
Who is pushing Farage into the spotlight?

The failures of the Democrats. Yes, it took far too long for them to accept that, in that election, Biden was the wrong candidate.
With dreadful consequences.

Dickens

Galaxy

I agree again Monica, I think one of the other reasons is also a failure of the left and I think that is also to do with the middle class increasingly dominating the direction of the labour party. I find the disconnect between those in power and their voters deeply concerning.

I think one of the most destructive facets of Left ideology has been (and still is) its insistence on what we jokingly call "political correctness". PC is real, amd it's a damaging culture because it stifles or closes down debate and discussion - if you oppose it, you're seen as a bigot - one who wants to continue to use outdated and insulting terminology which, in my case, could not be further from the truth... I never used that kind of terminology in the first place.

Hard-line xenophobes and bigots aside - there were voices on both the Left and the Right that should have been listened to, but weren't, because they didn't follow the narrative.

The sad fact is that the Left despises and patronises the people they describe as 'working class' and who theoretically they want to free.

If you look at those people who vote Reform, the majority live in areas that previously elected labour MPs and, I think, that is significant.

I often think the comparisons between reform and Trump deeply unhelpful but I think it might have been useful to look at the failures of the Democrats and what we could learn from that.
I have been pretty much centre left my whole life, I don't hold any of the values currently being shouted about by the left or the progressives or whatever we can call them.
I wouldn't vote reform but I wouldn't vote against reform if you see what I mean.
Perhaps it is the German in me rebelling against my past 😃 but the authoritarian approach of the progressives scares me.

Galaxy

I agree again Monica, I think one of the other reasons is also a failure of the left and I think that is also to do with the middle class increasingly dominating the direction of the labour party. I find the disconnect between those in power and their voters deeply concerning.

I think one of the most destructive facets of Left ideology has been (and still is) its insistence on what we jokingly call "political correctness". PC is real, amd it's a damaging culture because it stifles or closes down debate and discussion - if you oppose it, you're seen as a bigot - one who wants to continue to use outdated and insulting terminology which, in my case, could not be further from the truth... I never used that kind of terminology in the first place.

Hard-line xenophobes and bigots aside - there were voices on both the Left and the Right that should have been listened to, but weren't, because they didn't follow the narrative.

I tell you what if I had lived through the 1930 s I would be more than irritated that I am having to go to work today.

Not at all! Germany and Germans spent decades coming to terms with the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust. West and East Germans approached in different ways. Post-war Germany is probably one of the most well-documented periods of history because it is so difficult to understand how it happened. Many Germans who lived through the 1930s and the war didn't/don't want to talk about it and find it difficult to accept their own part in the rise of Nazism

I hope you are not suggesting that Galaxy either lived through 1930’s Germany or has any part in the rise of Nazism.

I too am half German and have not only studied but also taught German history from the Weimar Republic to the fall of the Berlin Wall and Reunification.
I trust my ethnic background does not /did not detract from my qualifications to do so.

I agree again Monica, I think one of the other reasons is also a failure of the left and I think that is also to do with the middle class increasingly dominating the direction of the labour party. I find the disconnect between those in power and their voters deeply concerning.

Not at all! Germany and Germans spent decades coming to terms with the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust. West and East Germans approached in different ways. Post-war Germany is probably one of the most well-documented periods of history because it is so difficult to understand how it happened. Many Germans who lived through the 1930s and the war didn't/don't want to talk about it and find it difficult to accept their own part in the rise of Nazism.

I'm certainly not being dismissive, although I sometimes think that there are those who are. I also dispute your accusation of arrogance. Why am I being arrogant about something nearly every single serious historian agrees about?

For the first time, I have begun to understand the thinking of people in 1930s Germany (and Europe generally) and I truly believe that people who can't see what is unfolding in front of their noses are blinkered. That's not arrogance.

Incidentally, I don't think the English are necessarily the best people to understand their own history nor the French or Americans. Most people's understanding of their own history is partisan and biased.

In my experience, Germans aren't always the best placed to understand their own history. I really am surprised in your case because you have shown little understanding of what happened

That takes the biscuit!
Does that mean the English are similarly not best placed to understand their history? The French, Napoleon or Donald Trump, the American War of Independence..
On second thoughts, scrub that last example
But seriously - how dismissive, not to say arrogant

Galaxy

Yeah I am half German so I have a fairly good knowledge thanks. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean their knowledge is inferior.

In my experience, Germans aren't always the best placed to understand their own history. I really am surprised in your case because you have shown little understanding of what happened.

It's not a question of disagreeing with me, but not showing an understanding of what happened.

Galaxy

Oh he absolutely won't be able to do anything, he is a second rate version of Johnson.

I uite agree, but I think we make a mistake in not taking him seriously when there are so many people prepared to vote form.

It is a sign of a deep malaise in this country, that for too long politicians have been losing touch with voters. In the past we had knights from the shires, and union officials who had been working in factories and industry for decades before becoming MPs. Both groups were rooted in their local area and knew and understood the problems of their area and their voters. The swing to London-centric, political careerists has broken that link, too many do not know or deeply understand the people they represent.

In the past MPs were based in their constituencies and came up to London for Parliament. Parliament actually ended their proceedings early on a Friday so that MPs could get home for the weekend. Now too many MPS lives are in London and they go out to visit their constituencies, they may have a home in the constituency, but their true home and centre of life is London.

Yes, I referred to the Bullingdon club upthread. Yukky lot, thought they were the bees knees and they were entitled *hits many of them - but actually very weak men underneath imo.

There were plenty at Cambridge too. As a student radical, one of my contributions was to stand up on the stage with another women during a large sit in telling off the young men for wanting to play blue movies through the night. It was the early 1970's and feminism had entered the scene. 🫶

LizzieDrip

Galaxy

The articulate ones are usually the worst, they hide their misogyny.

Eh? What’s that supposed to mean?

LizzieDrip
Have you never read anything on what a misogynistic cesspool some of the Oxford/ Cambridge clubs are.

Oh he absolutely won't be able to do anything, he is a second rate version of Johnson.

Monica - I don't think that Reform will "find out" how difficult it is to do the things it is saying it will do - I think Farage knows full well that a lot of what he promises isn't possible, but he has little intention of doing much about it. When he gets in, all Farage's favourite hobbyhorses will be given free rein, I expect he'd throw his weight about a bit about anyone not born in this country (who isn't a Reform MP) & the boats, but I don't think that's his primary concern were he to get his hands on power.That would be making sure him & his mates got rich(er).

I think their suggestion was to put doctors receptionists in place in areas where illegal immigrants might try to gain access.

I have always found the monster raving loony party fairly unfunny but I liked that

Personally, all my support is for the 'The Monster Raving Looney party', whose manifesto sound the most reasonable of the lot
www.loonyparty.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/06/Makerfield_Manicfesto-717x1024.jpg

I still think if Reform was treated like a mainstream party, and given its vote support, I think it should, we would then judge and scrutinise the party in the way we do the Labour and Conservative parties.

This happened to the Green Party during the local elections and when that was done things came out of the woodwork that damaged both the party and its leader. But at least potential voters know about them now and consider how they vote next time.

Galaxy

Yeah I am half German so I have a fairly good knowledge thanks. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean their knowledge is inferior.

Indeed but . . .

Yeah I am half German so I have a fairly good knowledge thanks. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean their knowledge is inferior.

Galaxy

It is not that we are walking blindly, I agree with many of Monica's points. I hate the nazi comparisons but if we are going to do that, it is the greens who I would be more afraid of in terms of that line.
The pro palestine marches etc, in my view have drawn a target on the backs of Jewish people, it isn't reform who have enabled that.

Quite honestly, comparing the Greens with the Nazis really is silly.

If course Reform and the Nazis aren't identical, but you really should mug up on the Nazis' rise to power if you can't see the parallels and the warning signs.

It is not that we are walking blindly, I agree with many of Monica's points. I hate the nazi comparisons but if we are going to do that, it is the greens who I would be more afraid of in terms of that line.
The pro palestine marches etc, in my view have drawn a target on the backs of Jewish people, it isn't reform who have enabled that.