Unsubstantiated attacks on historical figures

As far as i have read about this Churchill did not deliberately engineer the famine to kill Indians but he knew all about it, was begged for help from Avery and Wavell, operated a scorched earth policy, and blamed the famine on the people "breeding".

He and his cabinet possessed full knowledge of the human cost, possessed the resources to alleviate it significantly, and chose to push those people aside.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Amery's own diary
Naturally I lost patience and couldn't help telling him that I didn't see much difference between his outlook and Hitler's, which annoyed him no little.

Churchill told him;
I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion

The historical consensus is clear that he and the War Cabinet in London were repeatedly, explicitly warned about the scale of the catastrophe by British officials on the ground in India. They continued to export Indian grain to fuel the war effort elsewhere and built up massive grain stockpiles in Europe.

I think this is bad enough.

In his defence he did eventually write to America and asked them to help India!

(Just noticed Amery was corrected to Avery earlier. Sorry)

It is an art piece, not a historical record.

NotSpaghetti

As far as i have read about this Churchill did not deliberately engineer the famine to kill Indians but he knew all about it, was begged for help from Avery and Wavell, operated a scorched earth policy, and blamed the famine on the people "breeding".

He and his cabinet possessed full knowledge of the human cost, possessed the resources to alleviate it significantly, and chose to push those people aside.

That sounds like wilful infliction to me. He knew about it and did nothing to stop it.

NotSpaghetti

It is an art piece, not a historical record.

Interesting. So toppling sculptures of historical figures is just destroying an art piece, not our history?

Not that I objected in the slightest to such ‘toppling’, I just think your argument is a novel one.

Just read this which explains what was in the piece that 50 peers objected to.

www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2026/jun/23/artwork-removed-national-portrait-gallery-helen-cammock-churchill-bengal-famine

In the work, Cammock, who narrates the 40-minute piece, discusses Oliver Cromwell’s campaigns in Ireland, saying “he starved people, en masse, a little like the wilful starvation of the Indian population by Winston Churchill”.

If that us the nub of it I don't think it's SO far from the mark!

I haven't seen the piece but it's obviously not all about Churchill. He may have only been mentioned in this one phrase - almost an aside!

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who saw it.
Maybe you saw it MawsRosie?

I am not in favour of destroying any art piece

I think these sculptures should have been put in context - maybe all in galleries.

Art is interpretation not historical record.
Obviously it becomes a part of our historical record

It seems you’re talking to yourself now as far as the original topic is concerned NotSpaghetti…

I suspect the peers who objected were tory…

Interesting that a few peers can get an art work removed quite speedily when Bristol inhabitants begged for the removal of slaver Colston’s statue for year to no avail…

NotSpaghetti

As far as i have read about this Churchill did not deliberately engineer the famine to kill Indians but he knew all about it, was begged for help from Avery and Wavell, operated a scorched earth policy, and blamed the famine on the people "breeding".

He and his cabinet possessed full knowledge of the human cost, possessed the resources to alleviate it significantly, and chose to push those people aside.

On a much smaller scale, Churchill refused to help the Channel Islands nearing the end of WW2. With the Germany army being pushed back through France after the D-Day landings, all supply ships to the Channel Islands were stopped due to cut off of supply lines. Food, fuel and medication was seriously short for Islanders and Germans alike. The Germans asked Churchill to arrange evacuation of women, children and the elderly to help alleviate the crisis. He refused and wrote the comment. 'Let 'em starve. No fighting. They can rot at their leisure'. Very divided opinion on what he meant but Islanders saw it as a refusal to help British citizens in time of dire need.

Sarnia

NotSpaghetti

As far as i have read about this Churchill did not deliberately engineer the famine to kill Indians but he knew all about it, was begged for help from Avery and Wavell, operated a scorched earth policy, and blamed the famine on the people "breeding".

He and his cabinet possessed full knowledge of the human cost, possessed the resources to alleviate it significantly, and chose to push those people aside.

On a much smaller scale, Churchill refused to help the Channel Islands nearing the end of WW2. With the Germany army being pushed back through France after the D-Day landings, all supply ships to the Channel Islands were stopped due to cut off of supply lines. Food, fuel and medication was seriously short for Islanders and Germans alike. The Germans asked Churchill to arrange evacuation of women, children and the elderly to help alleviate the crisis. He refused and wrote the comment. 'Let 'em starve. No fighting. They can rot at their leisure'. Very divided opinion on what he meant but Islanders saw it as a refusal to help British citizens in time of dire need.

'...“…and our dear Channel Islands are also to be freed today' (Churchill 8th May 1945).

'Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.'

'Twas ever thus'.

We should be grown up about this and realise that our heroes have clay feet.
And Churchill was of a generation of privileged white men in power all of whom probably had very questionable opinions and were responsible for acts of inhumanity against the natives of various parts of the Empire.
I do know that Churchill when younger ordered early versions of war planes to drop bombs on Kurdish villages in Iraq in order to test out the accuracy etc., of said planes.
I know is hard to see such a giant in our history as unworthy of the adulation many have for him, but in my opinion no human being deserves to be worshipped. I admire certain historical figures but I do see them as human beings who are fallible.

I have never seen adulation of Churchill but great admiration for his role in the Second World War.
He didn’t do well in lots of other situations but was a product of his time and class.

I never consider a video display as a work of art anyway.

Oreo

I never consider a video display as a work of art anyway.

Me neither but horses for courses I suppose 😕