Andy Burnham now officially Leader of Labour Party.

No politics of envy from me either what concerns me is the widening gap between those who have and those who don't. I'm fortunate to be in the "those that have" camp but it doesn't prevent me from recognising that the disparity in wealth is not a recipe for social cohesion, quite the opposite. The happiest societies are those that provide it's population with a decent standard of housing, good healthcare, an educational system that is fair and accessible and jobs or benefits that enable people to have a reasonable standard of living. We don't have that in the UK and with an ageing population we need to think creatively about how to improve life for those who feel "left behind" . If I have to pay more into the pot, then so be it.

Doodledog

Meandrogrog

greyfur

I wish him well, but after such a long time of 'no such thing as society' it will prove very difficult to get people to part with their money or privilege for the benefit of those with neither

No chance.

Those with money may well have studied hard for years in order to achieve.

It sounds like the politics of envy to me.

No envy from me. Not everyone is driven by the same motives, and I often wonder whether those who accuse others of 'politics of envy' are driven by that themselves. Why else would they ascribe such a peculiar (to me) way of thinking to other people?

And I studied for years in order to achieve, too, for what that's worth.

None from me, either. Our life is comfortable and I'm not bothered about getting more.

My problem with wealth is that the economic system in which we live subverts the main function of money, which is to promote economic activity, by drawing it inexorably upwards to those who, frankly, have little need of it once they have spent all they can spend but are intent on acquiring more and more of it just for the sake of having wealth.

Which would be OKish if all the sectors of society had sufficient money to lead decent and dignified lives, able to provide for their needs, but when this is demonstrably not possible for a significantly large portion of society the urges of the wealthy to obtain even more wealth, and the ease with which they can acquire it to the detriment of others, should be curbed.

Do we really want to revert to a situation where the wealthy have nearly everything while a far greater number of people have little or nothing?

Allsorts

It is so wrong the way AB was manipulated in.Seven PM’s in 10 years, how much the pension bill to them is costing is a joke but not a funny one. No wonder our grandchildren are not bothered about politics and who can blame them! I can’t help but worry about AB disregard for rules and tradition, it doesn't bode well.
I do however want to be proved wrong as its awful what has happened to the uk.

If you don’t like the payments that go to all
ex-PMs ( and I don’t) you could discuss it as a separate issue and not wrap it up in this thread. What rules has AB disregarded? Absolutely none And what traditions? The tradition of getting rid of PMs brutally and with much plotting is a long and (dis) honourable one and plays across both parties I think some people criticising what happened really just don’t want AB because they think he might actually succeed

It is so wrong the way AB was manipulated in.Seven PM’s in 10 years, how much the pension bill to them is costing is a joke but not a funny one. No wonder our grandchildren are not bothered about politics and who can blame them! I can’t help but worry about AB disregard for rules and tradition, it doesn't bode well.
I do however want to be proved wrong as its awful what has happened to the uk.

Tuliptree

GrannyGravy13

So what?

I await your response when the Conservatives change PM mid term…

I don’t understand your point. My point is that as long as any party follows its rules for changing leader whether in power or not, that’s all that matters I have never believed that a change of PM should mean a GE.

Just because something is legal doesn’t make it morally right. Had Keir Starmer done something really underhand I would have understood but they used the mistakes he did make to undermine his leadership because imo they’d been planning the coup for a long time. And that’s what I can’t forgive. I believe that Burnham tried something at the party conference but it failed. And when the media roll out Johnson to give Keir advice on how to handle the situation I just end up screaming at the tv; as if Keir’s mistakes were in the same league as Johnson’s. I feel embarrassed that non Labour voters gave the party their trust only to see them behaving like the last government (s). For the sake of the country I have to hope that Burnham succeeds but, if he does it is because he is building on a firm foundation built by the Starmer government. The very people that overthrew Keir are now emailing me with a huge list of his achievements over the past two years.

I was against that as well.
I am against quite a lot of things

I would feel more sympathy with those who didn't like the way that the Makerfield by election was contrived if it weren't for the fact that Burnham was deliberately blocked from standing at the earlier Gorton and Denton by election. He was not the only person being devious...

Meandrogrog

greyfur

I wish him well, but after such a long time of 'no such thing as society' it will prove very difficult to get people to part with their money or privilege for the benefit of those with neither

No chance.

Those with money may well have studied hard for years in order to achieve.

It sounds like the politics of envy to me.

No envy from me. Not everyone is driven by the same motives, and I often wonder whether those who accuse others of 'politics of envy' are driven by that themselves. Why else would they ascribe such a peculiar (to me) way of thinking to other people?

And I studied for years in order to achieve, too, for what that's worth.

GrannyGravy13

I agree with Galaxy

From a regional Mayor to PM in a matter of weeks, underhand and devious, planned behind the scenes for how long?

Its said that KS was a Trojan horse.

greyfur

*I wish him well, but after such a long time of 'no such thing as society' it will prove very difficult to get people to part with their money or privilege for the benefit of those with neither*

No chance.

Those with money may well have studied hard for years in order to achieve.

It sounds like the politics of envy to me.

GrannyGravy13

I agree with Galaxy

From a regional Mayor to PM in a matter of weeks, underhand and devious, planned behind the scenes for how long?

Since 2010 if various media sources are to be believed. 😄

Tuliptree

I think comparing and contrasting the various ways that parties bring about a change in their leadership is really the political equivalent of discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. That’s why my position is just based on were the rules followed not about the spirit of the rules There’s no space for that type of sentiment I wish there were but there really isn’t

Agreed, and the spirit of the rules is the same across parties, so it’s even more of a pointless exercise. Tit for tat is never edifying.

None of this has been pretty, but from AB's speech on Friday and announcements since I can see why the LP - or most of it - thought a change of leader and stabilising of direction would help it through the next 2-3 years.

I think comparing and contrasting the various ways that parties bring about a change in their leadership is really the political equivalent of discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. That’s why my position is just based on were the rules followed not about the spirit of the rules There’s no space for that type of sentiment I wish there were but there really isn’t

Just as people’s objections made no difference when it was the Tories doing it, it will make no difference when Tories complain now that Labour are doing it, and all the whataboutery in the world won’t change that.

Again, where is the evidence of coercion? And why are ‘persuade’ and ‘create’ in italics? Are you suggesting the words you are using are the wrong ones? Why not just say what you mean?

Doodledog I know the Conservatives changed leaders during their tenure.

I also recall the vitriol on threads directed towards them for doing so.

Mind you, all usurpers were elected MPs, they didn’t persuade a newly elected MP, in a safe Labour seat to resign and therefore create a by-election…

GrannyGravy13

^So what?^

I await your response when the Conservatives change PM mid term…

But they did that more than once the last time they were in power.

I have no way of knowing whether anyone was coerced or manipulated - if anyone has evidence of that, please share as it would be interesting to know.

I do feel sorry tor KS, as I don’t share the view that he was ineffectual or ‘hated’, and I think he had a lot more he wanted to do; but given the way the media had so many people repeating their propaganda I think he had to step down to make way for someone who might be better at presentation.

It’s interesting that a lot of Starmer’s critics (including those who claimed to be unbiased or even supportive to him at first) have now turned against the man who is (as I see it) trying to rescue the fairness platform on which Starmer stood.

Thank you Tuliptree.

Betrayed is a good word to describe how I currently feel.

I also feel extreme cognitive dissonance (which is uncomfortable) because I really dislike what the LP has done but, at the same time, I want the LP to succeed in government.

Ahhh🙈

LizzieDrip you have described my thoughts and feelings on this.
👍🏻

Lizzie - I can really appreciate how you feel about this ( I left the LP decades ago after feeling betrayed by a ( very different) issue. It’s easy for me to accept the means justifying the ends as I’m not invested in the same way as you are.

To be clear, I accept that no LP rules have been broken.

However, for me (as a LP member) the entire process, which has been plotted for over a year, leaves a very nasty taste. It makes the LP look underhand and devious.

I no longer trust my own constituency Labour MP, who has apparently been part of the shenanigans, and neither do I trust the PLP.

I thought the LP was better than this but, apparently, they’re just like all the others … something I never thought I would say

And what makes you think the MP was coerced?

GrannyGravy13

^So what?^

I await your response when the Conservatives change PM mid term…

I don’t understand your point. My point is that as long as any party follows its rules for changing leader whether in power or not, that’s all that matters I have never believed that a change of PM should mean a GE.

Galaxy

It depends if you think 'playing a blinder' means forcing a by election, I don't, and that applies to all political parties.

Exactly 👏👏👏

I feel sorry for the MP coerced into standing down.

So what?

I await your response when the Conservatives change PM mid term…