AB says no ID

Does anyone really belittle the experience of the Jews under the Nazi régime?
We should certainly remember what happened, and using ID made singling out targets easier, but attacks on religious groups including Christians are still happening now, even without ID cards.
What are we doing now, that future generations will see as the contributory factor to that?

Saying that the Dutch experience was a long time ago is belittling. Perhaps you could discuss it either way your Jewish friends from Holocaust survivor families and let us know what they think?

With not either

I have a Jewish close relative so I know. You don’t need to tell me how to suck eggs. Anti Semitism is a big problem in the UK as it is here, partly because of the Palestinian marches and hate speech. Just don’t get me started ….

No. Saying the Dutch experience was a long time ago is a fact.
Belittling would need to say more than that.

I think that ID cards have the potential to be used in nefarious ways that we can't imagine yet, as we still live under a comparatively benign government.

My point is that people who have nothing to hide today may find that tomorrow they do, so we do need to be careful about how things like ID cards could be sued, whether or not we think they would be used for ill today.

Mollygo

No. Saying the Dutch experience was a long time ago is a fact.
Belittling would need to say more than that.

I think you know as well as I do the way meanings can be very clearly implied. It is belittling and that’s it. My statement is clear and explicit. The topic is too important to play games with.

No you think it is belittling, others don't. That is an opinion rather than a fact. I brought it up and people are perfectly entitled to disagree with me. It was an example of those in power doing terrible things. I am wary of ID as my faith in government and institutions is very low, I don't know why we would cede more power to them

Galaxy

No you think it is belittling, others don't. That is an opinion rather than a fact. I brought it up and people are perfectly entitled to disagree with me. It was an example of those in power doing terrible things. I am wary of ID as my faith in government and institutions is very low, I don't know why we would cede more power to them

You may have brought it up but I was responding to Aveline who said it wasn’t a recent occurrence. I didn’t have any response to your post.

And I didn’t say it was a fact - I said that’s it as in that’s what I believe. Which I do.

nanna8

I have a Jewish close relative so I know. You don’t need to tell me how to suck eggs. Anti Semitism is a big problem in the UK as it is here, partly because of the Palestinian marches and hate speech. Just don’t get me started ….

I clearly missed the post I posted where I addressed you. I was responding to Molly.

On you go. Take offence if you want to. The fact is that the use of ID cards helped Nazis more than 80 years ago. It's now 2026. The govt already holds just about all our data already. ID cards could simplify everyday transactions for us.

You’ve missed the point. But there’s no point in continuing. I’d actually prefer ID cards as I said very early upthread but I understand why some people refer back to the Dutch experience which is still within Jewish collective memory and I respect that.

I think the point is that all EU/EEA countries except Denmark and Ireland have ID cards. My French friends were all amazed that the UK did not have them. You can, of course, use your ID card for travel in the EU.

Just because other countries do something isn't necessarily a reason for us to follow suit though. Germany has all sorts of weird laws on prostitution for example, I don't want to follow them down that particular road.
I will stop introducing random concepts now.

Doodledog

Galaxy

Yes I think it was the Netherlands where the register of its people ( detailing religion) facilitated the identification of Jewish people by the nazis.

Indeed. And that could happen again. To people who have nothing to hide just now, as well as those who do.

Is that the worry regarding the introduction of ID cards in the UK?

I do not belittle the experience of the Jewish people by the nazis and acknowledge it's a highly sensitive subject but I was curious as to how exactly did the Germans and their collaborators identify the location of Jewish individuals? So I googled and it came up with:

Through meticulous bureaucracy and widespread civilian collaboration, rather than advanced technology
Key identification methods included:
Paper Records Nazis used state, census, and tax records, as well as synagogue membership lists and church parish records (for converted Jews).
Mandatory Registration Jews were forced to register with local authorities, carry ID cards marked with a "J", and wear a yellow Star of David.
Local Denunciations Throughout occupied Europe, the regime relied heavily on the willing assistance of local citizens and neighbours who denounced Jews in hiding to the authorities, often for monetary rewards.

State, tax and census records and church membership records etc exist in a similar way as they did 100 years ago.

The LP said the purpose of the proposed digital ID scheme was intended to combat illegal workers and to streamline. public services. That probably has not changed just that its implementation not seen as an immediate priority by AB in the scheme of things he would like his new cabinet to tackle first?

The difference is that it is now possible to make sure that someone is identified by a chip on a card, and s/he could find it impossible to get money, fill a car with petrol (or charge an EV), catch a bus, buy food and anything else that could be made to need a swipe of that card. The implications for social control are enormous.

Yes, there is a lot of information about us stored already, but it is not centralised, and that centralisation is what would concern me. Many of us will be aware of errors in records about us (my medical records have a number of mistakes, for instance) and if important information on centralised cards is wrong that could (and I'm not saying it would) have disastrous consequences for individuals.

There are numerous possible scenarios, but as a hypothetical illustration, suppose the NHS runs out of money, and it is decreed that anyone who can be assumed to have less than 5 years to live can no longer be given medical treatment, as resources are better used on those with a long life ahead of them. A mistake in someone's notes could mean that they are left to die early.

Unlikely? Maybe, but as we have all seen over our lifetimes, times and ways of thinking change.

Blimey these are dark thoughts Doodledog!

Aveline

Blimey these are dark thoughts Doodledog!

They are, aren't they? . Ironically, I am on the fence about ID cards, though. I think they would have their uses, but I do have the reservations I have described.

Quick get over to Corrie! It won't cheer you up but might divert you.