49,000 migrants invade Spanish enclave in 24 hours

Oh I thought we weren’t supposed to know what other people were thinking - I’m confused

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Ah! Somebody is busy I see.

nanna8

No one I know here talks about far right - they do online, though. Especially the British. Just saying. I think it is meant as an insult or a way of shutting people up. Not sure. I just think it is rude and so is the lovey leftie description. Equally bad.

Australia has far right groups.

Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke announced that White Australia, previously known as the National Socialist Network (NSN) and the European Australian Movement, would be designated a prohibited hate group under laws introduced after the Bondi terror attack.

Labelling all irregular migrants as toxic in one way or another however expressed is imo hate talk or bordering on that.

All I ask it just dont lump all together with the same label.

butterandjam

nanna8

No one I know here talks about far right - they do online, though. Especially the British. Just saying. I think it is meant as an insult or a way of shutting people up. Not sure. I just think it is rude and so is the lovey leftie description. Equally bad.

Australia has far right groups.

Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke announced that White Australia, previously known as the National Socialist Network (NSN) and the European Australian Movement, would be designated a prohibited hate group under laws introduced after the Bondi terror attack.

Of course it has but we don’t go round accusing everyone we disagree with of being far right. That is just silly and the real far right can hide under the mass accusations.That is what is dangerous and irritating.

Indeed nanna. one has to be specific in separating what sort of Right Wing just as one does for the left.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with being right wing.

Yes, I agree with both of you. 🇬🇧🇦🇺

Galaxy

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with being right wing.

I am sure you will agree that there is nothing wrong with being Left Wing either.
Having lived in France for 20 years (now back in England), I cannot express my view of how to behave as a responsible citizen better than Liberty, Equality, Fraternity.

I am afraid I think things are much more complicated that that Mamie.

Nothing wrong with being left wing, right wing or centrist.

It's far right wing opinions and actions that are worrying and pose a risk- as identified by both M15 and the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation equivalent.

Exactly that Fancythat, prove you can support yourselves.

But when the Times calls

"Strict immigration, tradional family values and national sovereignty, now means far right to people??"

then there is a big problem.

Galaxy

I am afraid I think things are much more complicated that that Mamie.

Well obviously some people and institutions are always going to fail, but I would say that living in France you can see in everyday life how those values underpin the working of the Republic.
When my husband was seriously ill, it was the Maison de Solidarité that gave us practical support.
Working in schools, you could see how the values are engrained from the earliest years.
You may regard it as simplistic, but what would you put in its place?

sazz1

Is the left really left though? Or just pretending to be?
I'm reading about many people in one area, many of whom marched previously in defense of immigrants and welcomed them. Then the 'boat people' started being put into accommodation in their area. Mass protests against it from the formerly welcoming population followed. Same in one village where asylum seekers were being transferred to an ex army barracks. There many villagers were going to leave the UK! It's definitely a 'not in my back yard' but welcome somewhere else.
Spain is deporting most of the Moroccans now and many have left voluntarily. They have an inflatable barrier installed across the coastline to stop boats, jet skies etc. IMO we should have the same, and do the same
If you're defending the illegal immigrants think if you would really welcome them en mass in your street or nearby area.

That’s what I think ‘ all welcome’, ‘just don’t put them in my back yard’ mentality 🙄

Galaxy

If the current governments don't police their borders, address the issues, then the populations will vote for governments that will. That is the choice really.

It's simple to imagine Reform or Restore getting a foothold on power the way things are going at the moment. God forbid.

Well I am guessing that France has similar complexities relating to those words than anywhere does, how do you achieve equality, how do you balance liberty with the responsibilities of society. So for example many people would think for example that the restriction of religious symbols in aspects of public life wasn't liberty ( I am.not sure I would agree with those views but it is certainly a complex issue).

I adore France by the way

I've always considered Liberté, égalité, fraternité all very positive as individual values, but in modern times they can't easily work as a package. For example, total freedom allows some people to get very rich or powerful. This then destroys equality and often leaves others poor and helpless. Yet if you have strict equality, then that implies having rules that take away personal freedoms. It's catch 22.

Fraternity is a tricky concept because it relies on people caring about each other voluntarily, which laws cannot easily force. However, innmy lifetime this is the one I've witnessed most often in France, and elsewhere. It's the best starting point in troubled times.

fancythat

But when the Times calls

"Strict immigration, tradional family values and national sovereignty, now means far right to people??"

then there is a big problem.

Is that what the Times says the far right means to people?

My understanding of Far right:

The term far right describes political views that sit on the extreme right end of the political spectrum, defined primarily by ultranationalism, strict anti-immigration stances, and authoritarian tendencies.

Core Beliefs
Extreme Nationalism Believing that the home nation and its native culture are superior to others, putting national interests above all global or multi-country groups.
Anti-Immigration Strongly opposing new people moving into the country to protect local jobs, native populations, and traditional ways of life.
Authoritarianism Favouring strong, strict leadership and absolute law and order over individual freedoms and open democracy.
Social Hierarchy Believing that society naturally has higher and lower groups based on race, culture, or power.

Common Groups and Types
Radical Populists Political groups that use anger at mainstream leaders to win votes, wanting strict borders and traditional values, but still working within a democratic system.
Extreme Groups Fringe organisations, including neo-Nazis and fascists, that reject democracy completely and sometimes use violence or hate speech to reach their goals. 


Wikipedia also has a good definition.....

MartavTaurus

I've always considered Liberté, égalité, fraternité all very positive as individual values, but in modern times they can't easily work as a package. For example, total freedom allows some people to get very rich or powerful. This then destroys equality and often leaves others poor and helpless. Yet if you have strict equality, then that implies having rules that take away personal freedoms. It's catch 22.

Fraternity is a tricky concept because it relies on people caring about each other voluntarily, which laws cannot easily force. However, innmy lifetime this is the one I've witnessed most often in France, and elsewhere. It's the best starting point in troubled times.

The French tax system doesn't give much leeway though does it. We know that the gap between rich and poor is far narrower than in the UK. Companies may be private, but they are heavily restricted by state controlled laws. The cost of employing people is very tough on businesses, but ensures contributions for health and pensions. The bureaucratic paperwork for everything is extensive, but you would struggle to fiddle the books.
I agree that people go out of their way to help others, even if people don't want to do what the state require, I think most people know that they should.
Laicité (secularism?) is an interesting one, though I agree with it personally.

Crumbly159

Galaxy

If the current governments don't police their borders, address the issues, then the populations will vote for governments that will. That is the choice really.

It's simple to imagine Reform or Restore getting a foothold on power the way things are going at the moment. God forbid.

I know, but as Galaxy says unless the current government does better on the illegal immigration front it could well happen, actually not just that but immigration generally.
Andy Burnham is talking the talk but it must translate into action.

LemonJam

fancythat

But when the Times calls

"Strict immigration, tradional family values and national sovereignty, now means far right to people??"

then there is a big problem.

Is that what the Times says the far right means to people?

My understanding of Far right:

The term far right describes political views that sit on the extreme right end of the political spectrum, defined primarily by ultranationalism, strict anti-immigration stances, and authoritarian tendencies.

Core Beliefs
Extreme Nationalism Believing that the home nation and its native culture are superior to others, putting national interests above all global or multi-country groups.
Anti-Immigration Strongly opposing new people moving into the country to protect local jobs, native populations, and traditional ways of life.
Authoritarianism Favouring strong, strict leadership and absolute law and order over individual freedoms and open democracy.
Social Hierarchy Believing that society naturally has higher and lower groups based on race, culture, or power.

Common Groups and Types
Radical Populists Political groups that use anger at mainstream leaders to win votes, wanting strict borders and traditional values, but still working within a democratic system.
Extreme Groups Fringe organisations, including neo-Nazis and fascists, that reject democracy completely and sometimes use violence or hate speech to reach their goals. 


Wikipedia also has a good definition.....

See Casdon post yesterday, 11.19am

Thanks fancythat- I did read Casdon's 11.19 post yesterday also 😊