Alternatives to prison?

Whitewavemark2

missdeke

Deport every non native convicted criminal. If they weren't born here, they can't stay here.

Taking a leaf out of the orange one’s book?

No, but if they are in our country and commit crimes why should we house and provide for them, albeit in a lock up. It's a drain on our resources which the tax payers of this country have o choice but to pay. Personally I have nothing against immigration, as long as it's done legally and they obey our much flouted laws.

Stocks on the village green?

At least when these murderers ,violent thugs, sexual offenders and thieves an robbers are in prison. They can no longer perpetrate these crimes on the public.

Does this not help with keeping the crime rate figure down?

And causing less damage, suffering and misery to innocent people.

Tooyoung
‘The countries where crime is low have much harsher punishments’
I don’t know where you got that from but it really isn’t true If only it were that simple

It's common sense, surely, to not spend resources on people who are here unlawfully?

missdeke

Deport every non native convicted criminal. If they weren't born here, they can't stay here.

Taking a leaf out of the orange one’s book?

missdeke

Deport every non native convicted criminal. If they weren't born here, they can't stay here.

Think this would free up a lot of space!!! I think we are too soft here. The countries where crime is low have much harsher punishments. Even crimes like theft/shoplifting have a huge fine and a sentence all be it short. This then stays on their record. If there was more of a "threat" for law breaking maybe there would be fewer criminals. I mean why pay for your goods in a shop these days when you can just fill your bag and walk out without anyone trying to stop you!! I reported someone filling their bag with fragrances in local shop to be told "oh we don't try and stop them now, we just call it in" absolutely ridiculous!! To me that's not ok as we, the law abiding tax paying folks, end up "paying" for those stolen items with price increases. The whole system needs a shake up, but in the meantime removing all those who are in UK illegally and in prison should be sent back to their country of birth for them to deal with. Oh and although many of you will not agree I personally think there are some crimes that deserve the death penalty, that would free up more space 🤔

Deport every non native convicted criminal. If they weren't born here, they can't stay here.

Boot camps, a month - short, sharp shock. No frills, basic but nutritious food, conforming to rules, sticking to routine, given tasks that have to be completed. If they don't comply back to court for a longer prison sentence.

The system seems archaic and needs changing. Recruiting more probation officers, people to oversee community service would be a start for non violent criminals.
I agree that Sure Start was good for families giving disadvantaged 2 year olds a positive start in life and keeping more generations from.becoming offenders.
This is a start but more needs to be done. It's a huge problem.

I have heard people say that people who go into prison for one crime come out again - eventually - more educated in how to be a criminal. There are not enough prison staff and few prisoners get the help or rehabilitation they need and many prisoners have mental health problems which, again, prison staff do not have the time or training to help with.
Loss of liberty is the true punishment. But prisoners experience overcrowding in old buildings maybe living with rats and other undesirable creatures, little help to reform, frightening other prisoners, and maybe many hours locked in a cell with another prisoner.
We do need to punish - but we are not doing it well, and there are not many votes in prison reform.

I definitely think there are a whole host of offenders who shouldn't go to prison, those places need to be reserved for violent crime, and those offenders should get longer sentences. It's awful to think P C Harper's murderers may go free soon, they're still so young and it was hardly any time at all since he was killed with them sniggering and grinning like the idiots they are during the trial.

I'd like to see shoplifters and the latest phenomenon of diners and dashers (sheer greed) given pretty onerous tasks through community service, there's plenty of cleaning up that could be done out there. I think the expertise of skilled hackers for example could be put to good use rather than lock them up.

Do sentences usually reflect the seriousness of the specific crime do you think?

It's said, frequently, that judges are "out of touch". I tend NOT to agree, generally; for one thing, I'm not sure that those who make such comments always appreciate that judges cannot invent lenient or erratic sentences on a whim. They have to follow legal frameworks and defined guidelines. Really, such grievances should rest with the laws passed by Parliament and the Sentencing Council's framework, IMO. Hmm, and media coverage doesn't always help either...

However, there are individual cases where the public feels that a judge has been too lenient - one very recently which I don't need to emphasise.

And then, on the other hand, the sentencing of my friend's daughter (I don't want to enlarge on the circumstances to protect the individuals concerned), which I - and others not connected with the family - feel was too harsh.

In line with the order for early release of prisoners - does anyone think judges need some sort of 'refresher' course and, if so, would this impact in any meaningful way the numbers of those imprisoned?

The UK imprisons far more people than other European countries which make more use of community schemes aimed at education, training and rehabilitation. Prisins are very expensive. The UK's lack of progress is due to there being few votes in prison and sentencing reforms because any change is opposed by the hang em and flog em media. We need a Justice Secretary like the late Roy Jenkins to bring about reform.

Iam64- you bring expertise and some good suggestions in your post- its a brand wide ranging issue as to how people end up in custody in he first place- prevention is the way to go 😊

We managed to get all prisoners teeth up to scratch- long needed new prescription gales for others and long needed and awaited out patients appointments and subsequent treatment.

Ofcourse that does not address how they got there in the first place- that ship had long sailed- but the warning signs were clear. Neither do I know what happened next.

LemonJam and Iam64

Thoughtful and constructive posts. Agree entirely.

LemonJam

Having been involved in three yearly Health Needs assessment of the prsioners in the prisons in my county in a past job- there was solid evidence that large numbers had backgrounds as a child of poverty, infrequent school attendance, one of more parents who had been offenders and/or in prison custody, unstable housing and frequent moves, infrequent child health engagement, poor dental health etc. Quite simply falling through so many safety nets.

The majority had alcohol or drug decency, poor reading and writing skills, unstable relationships, unstable housing, frequent episodes of unemployment, not registered with a GP, poor dental and ocular health etc.

So several strands for me:

1) a country that tries to eradicate/reduce child poverty and inequalities and supports parents who may struggle.

2) Address health inequality whilst offenders in prison ( we negotiated contracts to bring dentists, opticians and out patient interventions into the prisons) Reading and writing classes. Teach them what their children might be studying so they can engage with their children in frequent family visits. Good quality Drug and Alcohol programmes. Money management, skills development etc.

3) Focus on rehabilitation- being in custody is the punishment.

4) Invest, build and extend Probation Service and offender programmes in the community.

I started in Probation in 1978, working to provide alternatives to custody tailored to the individual needs of offenders. My experience of working with offenders over many years fits into LemonJam’s summary.

IMO we need to focus on prevention, which starts with good early years support. Research was confirming that input from SureStart and similar early years programmes was contributing to less juvenile offending, early pregnancies etc.

We had a good Probation Service till disastrous privatisation happened. My two year training course was funded by the Home Office alongside which I had a small salary. We need health, social work, probation students not to leave training owing £70.000 - student debts their salaries are unlikely to repay, over worked and under supervised.

Our criminal justice system is in a mess, the main cause being austerity which saw experienced police, prison officers, senior managers in local authority made redundant to save money.

So invest in people, early years, mental health, substance misuse services etc. send less people to prison and provide alternatives. nanna8 probation used to run Community Service where offenders were supervised gardening, removing graffiti etc, an ex prison governor friend of mine worked as a supervisor on retirement

Also have been in prison can be a 'badge of honour' for some. Certainly those I've worked with have came from very poor families and were largely of pretty low intelligence and had had very little education.

Sadly- prisons do have inmates like your friends young daughter, and specifically more the case in women's prisons.

Not sure what the answer is.

A friend's young daughter went to prison for a crime that, in 'the eyes of the Law' ranked as 'serious' but would, for most of the general public, be regarded as a 'silly mistake'. She was young, had just given birth, and was vulnerable.

Her social worker told her that the judge would probably 'make an example of her' - pour encourager les autres - and indeed, he did. In spite of her unblemished record.

She was absolutely NO danger to the public and should not have been in prison. She shared a cell with a convicted drug addict who, fortunately, could see how vulnerable she was and took pity on her.

Community Service of some description would have sufficed in this young woman's case - and would've meant she would not have to be separated from her very young baby, nor lose her job, as a single parent. Fortunately, the family who are close-knit, rallied round and took care of the infant.

How many prison places are filled with cases like these - unnecessarily and at an economic cost?

All those requirements need people to provide and oversee them. There seems to be a shortage of such people, or more likely a lack of funding for that sector.

Septimia

There should be options other than prison for non-violent crimes, unless the person is a repeat offender. Then there might be room for violent criminals to be given longer sentences.

It would be complicated to set up, perhaps, but could be more effective in the long run.

Other options already exist in UK

sentencing.uk/guides/community-order-explained

A community order is imposed under section 200 of the Sentencing Act 2020. It replaces the various community sentences that existed under earlier legislation with a single flexible order. A community order must include at least one requirement and can last between 1 day and 3 years.

The court can include any combination of the following requirements: an unpaid work requirement (40 to 300 hours, sometimes called community service), a rehabilitation activity requirement (RAR), a programme requirement, a mental health treatment requirement (with the consent of the offender), a drug rehabilitation requirement (with consent), an alcohol treatment requirement (with consent), a curfew requirement (typically backed by electronic monitoring), an exclusion requirement, a residence requirement, an attendance centre requirement (primarily for those under 25), a foreign travel prohibition requirement, or a banned activity requirement.

Having been involved in three yearly Health Needs assessment of the prsioners in the prisons in my county in a past job- there was solid evidence that large numbers had backgrounds as a child of poverty, infrequent school attendance, one of more parents who had been offenders and/or in prison custody, unstable housing and frequent moves, infrequent child health engagement, poor dental health etc. Quite simply falling through so many safety nets.

The majority had alcohol or drug decency, poor reading and writing skills, unstable relationships, unstable housing, frequent episodes of unemployment, not registered with a GP, poor dental and ocular health etc.

So several strands for me:

1) a country that tries to eradicate/reduce child poverty and inequalities and supports parents who may struggle.

2) Address health inequality whilst offenders in prison ( we negotiated contracts to bring dentists, opticians and out patient interventions into the prisons) Reading and writing classes. Teach them what their children might be studying so they can engage with their children in frequent family visits. Good quality Drug and Alcohol programmes. Money management, skills development etc.

3) Focus on rehabilitation- being in custody is the punishment.

4) Invest, build and extend Probation Service and offender programmes in the community.

Whitewavemark2

I think it very much depends on whether we see prison as a place for rehabilitation or punishment.

The majority in the country I suspect they see it as a place of punishment and revenge.

However, whether in the long run that is a very intelligent attitude depends on the level of repeat offending, and whether we want to keep society as safe and civilised as possible once the prisoners are freed.

Agreed, and also I suspect that the threat of prison varies in intensity across different social groups. The very thought of it fills me with dread, but I am an older woman from a law-abiding background who would be afraid of other prisoners and would struggle with things like communal showers and set mealtimes etc.

Someone straight out of boarding school might adapt better, as might someone from a background where they are used to fronting up to threats of violence, and all sorts of other things about people's life experiences might make the thought of prison seem more or less horrific.

If that is true, then once someone has been in prison and survived, the chances are that they will 'fit in' better if they went back a second time, so it will be less of a deterrent for them.

The other variable is, I think the level of poverty, cost of housing and inequality. They all bring with them a level of criminality.