Narcissism / narcissistic - labelling

My earlier comment I spelled narcissism wrong) was based on this beautiful classic story- from Wiki:
Several versions of the myth have survived from ancient sources. The classic version is by Ovid, found in book 3 of his Metamorphoses (completed 8 AD); this is the story of Echo and Narcissus. One day Narcissus was walking in the woods when Echo, an Oread (mountain nymph) saw him, fell deeply in love, and followed him. Narcissus sensed he was being followed and shouted "Who's there?". Echo repeated "Who's there?" She eventually revealed her identity and attempted to embrace him. He stepped away and told her to leave him alone. She was heartbroken and spent the rest of her life in lonely glens until nothing but an echo sound remained of her. Nemesis (as an aspect of Aphrodite[7]), the goddess of revenge, noticed this behaviour after learning the story and decided to punish Narcissus. Once, during the summer, he was getting thirsty after hunting, and the goddess lured him to a pool where he leaned upon the water and saw himself in the bloom of youth. Narcissus did not realize it was merely his own reflection and fell deeply in love with it, as if it were somebody else. Unable to leave the allure of his image, he eventually realized that his love could not be reciprocated and he melted away from the fire of passion burning inside him, eventually turning into a gold and white flower.[8][9]

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a relatively rare diagnosis, and yet narcissism is reported to crop up quite frequently among families of posters to this forum. "

geekesse -- You are correct. NPD is a rare diagnosis but it is under-diagnosed by "professionals" for the reason that blondenana stated -- "Also i meant to say, not many narcissists are medically diagnosed because they think they are ok, and can't see any reason for diagnosis,so wont be"

Missfoodlove -- "She would lie about me to family friends, teachers telling them I was difficult." -- I can so relate. I consider 'it' the worst form of gas-lighting my Narc 'mom' pulled. It was also a 'Bat Signal' to all the budding Narc's/Golden Children in the room -- "Pick on 'this one'." She painted Me as the 'issue' ensuring any other 'adults' wouldn't stand up for Me either when I "complained" about being bullied and the other children knew 'it'.

geekesse -- "My point was that the term ‘narcissist’ is not appropriate unless it is a medical diagnosis." -- And almost NO Narcissists are ever "medically diagnosed" themselves because they think/believe that THEY are perfect and everyone else is the source of THEIR unhappiness. Most medically professionals diagnose Narcissism from the damage done to their victim(s)...

sodapop -- "The fact remains though that too many people throw these terms around without any real understanding." -- Who decided 'that' is a FACT? And what about those of Us who CAN "throw these terms around" with actual proper understanding?

Chewbacca -- "the term is now used to describe anyone that we don't like or just don't get on with" -- Not by ME it isn't.

Callistemon -- "Narcissism is something that must be diagnosed by a medical professional not casually thrown around on forums like these to describe someone who may be nasty and unkind. The same with Autism, bandied about on here without a shred of evidence by unqualified people." -- I get a 'laugh' out of how some people think on Autistic's and how they behave and how it is similar to Narcissism etc... The people saying most of that are either Neuro-Typical or ignorant of what Autism is, especially 'high-functioning' Autism/Asperger's Syndrome.

So when I hear someone misunderstanding high-functioning Autism or Autism in general? I just 'shrug' and think, "What else is new? I can't get anyone to understand Me being an abused child with C-PTSD from Narcissistic abuse... Trying to explain My Autism along with 'all that'?"

Shelmiss -- "I did a search online for the term “verbal abuse”, which led me to “emotional abuse” and that led me to undertaking a LOT of independent research into NPD. I felt like a whole world of understanding had suddenly opened up on front of me, a true lightbulb moment." -- That's how I felt when I 'looked up' -- "traits of female autistics'"

GrandmaMoira -- "Narcissism can only be diagnosed by a psychiatrist/psychologist." -- Which is true. My Doctor diagnosed my 'mom' from the effects/damage on Me.

I have no issues with labels when applied correctly... Whether those are applied by "professionals" or 'gifted amateurs'/survivors/those "educated" on the subject? I really don't care.

My labels gave Me understanding and clarity. I have C-PTSD. I am Autistic. I couldn't start to heal/become "better" until I understood what was 'wrong' with Me and embraced what I have to cope with.

People label things or other folk they dont agree with,I was quite annoyed by the posters on here who labelled wht sounded like a pefectly normal 15 month old baby as being on the spectrum.As a mother of children who say I was "old school" and very strct about some things even I recognise that babies learn from experiences just like the rest of us and by running around and flinging food on the floor etc he'll discover which not to do if he doesn't want to bump his head or slip on the food or just have his mum get annoyed at him .Surely that just what babies do? Putting a label on him that might follow him through his wee life is cruel and just wrong .You'd think by the time we become GP's we'd know that !!

Excellent posts Doodledog.

I think it is generally accepted that people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder have some sort of arrested development caused in early childhood, either because they were massively over-indulged or neglected (often with other trauma such as an absent parent or abuse of some kind) by their parents or caregivers.

rosecarmel

Conceit (whatever you choose to call it ..) doesn't just occur, it's caused- It's dependent upon many factors- Namely parents- Which could be why the term/label narc isn't liked- ?

Many factors, namely parents. ?? That’s not many factors?
Are you saying narcissists are that way because of their parents ?

I'm not sure that it's as simple as some posters are suggesting. On one level, I agree that amateur diagnoses are often irritating. In my lifetime, I have seen trends come and go - 'She's obsessed with . . .', 'He's a bit OCD', 'X is neurotic' etc.

The current fashion is to label every sort of bad behaviour as gaslighting. I think that this is unhelpful, as people who are genuinely being gaslighted must feel that it is trivialised, and it probably makes those who are told about it think that it is not too serious, when in fact it can be very destructive.

Similarly, narcissism seems to be a fashionable accusation, and it is, of course, linked to gaslighting, in that narcissists often use gaslighting to undermine their victims. OTOH, as someone said upthread, if you are the victim of a narcissist seeing a description of their MO can be a revelation. It is such a traumatic thing to go through that it can be difficult not to blame yourself for everything that happens in the relationship (whether that is a 'romantic' one, a parent/child dynamic, a work relationship or any dynamic between two people).

Typically, they 'love bomb', which can take many forms, but ultimately means that they make you feel that one way or another you can't manage without them. It is insidious, and happens to people who are otherwise strong and capable. The next stage is to 'devalue' you, which they do by chipping away at things you hold dear, until you lose all sense of who 'you' really are. This is confusing, and you think that it must be you who is at fault, as after all, you are their right hand woman, or their loved one, or their daughter, and you internalise the blame. They will use other people to reinforce your feelings of worthlessness - 'Everyone says', or they ignore what you say and then attribute it to another person as though you don't matter.

Every now and then, they are kind to you, and you get the dopamine hit you used to get when they were love-bombing. It's like an alcoholic having 'just one drink' - before you know it you are hooked again. The final stage is the discard, when they move on, and you are trying to get back in their good books, confused and miserable.

The way in which this happens varies according to the situation and the players, but the basics are the same. Seeing this in a book or online can be a revelation, and suddenly it all makes sense. Knowing that so many other people have been victim to this sort of behaviour can be oddly comforting, and the advice (to cut all contact) can be really useful.

Narcissism really isn't about conceit about appearance (although that can feature, as it can with anyone). It is also about real abuse, about a need to have people make them feel 'special' and 'superior'. I do understand why people who have been through this abuse feel entitled to use the term, whether or not they are qualified psychologists. I don't need a dentist to tell me when I have toothache.

Conceit (whatever you choose to call it ..) doesn't just occur, it's caused- It's dependent upon many factors- Namely parents- Which could be why the term/label narc isn't liked- ?

Thinking about it again, the only real narciccists are the stupid people who post selfies etc on public media sites. Showing their new shapes and worse.
Goodness knows what kind of parents and grandparents they will turn out to be.

When you are stuck in an unpleasant situation from which there is no escape, putting a label on your tormentor helps a little. You can dismiss his/her actions with 'it's because he has a mental problem'.
These days there is more help for people who are suffering, in the past, you had no choice but to put up with it.

I’ve only ever used the N word to describe one person, and that was after he’d died, when all sorts of things came out (previously unknown even to his wife) and suddenly it all made sense with his previous behaviour - selfish and intensely self centred, but extremely charming to 99.9% of the world, who thought him no end of a good bloke. Hardly anyone but his wife, dh and I ever saw his other side.

He fitted the classic description exactly, but it didn’t dawn on any of us until after he was gone.

Oddly enough, many years previously, and before she married him, a psychiatrist colleague of his gave her a veiled warning, saying he had a ‘very complex’ personality.

I agree Chewbacca and either directly or indirectly with constant links and references to narcissists, definitely seems to be on the increase here on GN on some threads in particular.

Not something soapbox spouters are well noted for.

When such a blanket statement is made, such as "Oh, she's a narcissist" etc, I've found that it's often used to close down any further enquiry or discussion; that the listener is just supposed to accept the description as a fait accompli. It's become the new insult or derogatory term for someone that they no longer see eye to eye with and I agree with geekesse that using the term says infinitely more about them than the person they're speaking about.

Not that those who like to intimidate would ever heed such wise words.

I would add "try to score points"!

......On GN and in "real life"!! ?

Love that quote Spangler so true .

Over use of words is a particular beef of mine. Now that the internet is here it's given everyone a soapbox to stand on and spout off. Better than that, it's given them anonymity.

How they seize on a word that was never previously in their day to day lexicon. In the days before the internet and spellcheckers, the only way to amass and use such words as narcissistic, was to read a lot. Not something soapbox spouters are well noted for.

Some credit President Lincoln, others say it was Mark Twain, for quoting the saying:
"It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."
Not that those who like to intimidate would ever heed such wise words.

I so agree, Geekesse. I had never heard the term used as a diagnosis before I read it on GN. Rather like sociopath, applied far too casually, and bi-polar, and to a lesser degree autistic and dyslexic.
Some symptoms are identifiable, but the terms shouldn't be used unless confirmed by a clinical diagnosis.

My adoptive Mother was a controlling nasty liar.
DS1 unfortunately came under her influence for a few years. He has controlled Mental Health problems which she used to persuade Health Workers he had learning difficulties and needed 24 hour health care. All behind my back, she told so many lies about me I had to involve a lawyer and send 'cease and desist' letters to a lot of people to stop the malicious gossip.
I have banged my head off a wall, while he enjoys being waited on hand and foot. Poor G***** he doesn't understand !!!!!
He has lots of Educational qualifications and went to a good College.
Sorry, everytime I say to people that he has Mental health problems they ask 'is he on the spectrum'
Yes,,,, the lazy spoilt toerag spectrum.

Sorry for the vent. but I just got a mail asking me to join a Webinaar their spelling, with other parents of 'children' with learning difficulties, he is 49. aaarrrggghhhh
On BT,,,,,

Great story allsortsifbags

Shelmiss

I was in a relationship with someone until the day I freed myself. I was able to free myself because one day, after a particularly unpleasant weekend, I did a search online for the term “verbal abuse”, which led me to “emotional abuse” and that led me to undertaking a LOT of independent research into NPD. I felt like a whole world of understanding had suddenly opened up on front of me, a true lightbulb moment. It gave me the strength to leave. I hasten to add this nearly 15 years ago. I am in a much MUCH better place now.

I didn’t tell anyone about this (or even the relationship) because yes the term is bandied around far too often and can easily be misused. Once you have experience of a true narcissist you will understand, but until then you can’t possibly.

Geekesse I completely agree with you, thank you for posting this.

Missfoodlove I think we have had different experiences but ultimately very similar. It’s horrendous and I understand. ?

Shelmiss I hear you.

Fennel my last DSM was 4 and I do believe there are up-dates that thankfully I don't have to study :-)

I once have a fortuitous experience with a throw away 'Label". I said in passing to DH boss that the company owner was a 'Sociopath'. He stopped the conversation and said "back up, what is that?"

So outside a bar in France, down a few pops, I explained the basics characteristics of a sociopath to him. What do I do ? How do I manage this ? he asked.

Remember I've had a few pops, "Leave" I said.

Longer conversation and he left and went to fly for Singapore Airlines two moths later.

The following year he was buying me Singapore Slings in the Long Bar at Raffles as I was in transit to NZ to see DD1, not too bad an outcome :-)

We, him, me and DH are all retired now so it turned out OK but probably helped by the years of study that went before the throw away 'Label"

Also i meant to say, not many narcissists are medically diagnosed because they think they are ok, and can't see any reason for diagnosis,so wont be

Missfoodlove .i agree with you, unless people have met a true narcissist,,and i am very sorry to read what a terrible life you had
Also there is more than one type of narcissist, and they can sometimes seem the most delightful people to others
People should look at the Quora website ,and learn all about narcissists,it's more than just being unpleasant ,and bullies etc

Labelling irritates me too. Yes, describe the behaviour, but then try to find alternative ways of reacting/dealing wth it.
Just writing the person off as a narc, autistic etc doesn't help anyone.
Like allsortsofbags I worked in that field and retired before many of these labels existed.
Evidently there's a publication from the American Psychiatric Assoc. which reviews classifications every now and then and usually creates a few new labels. I think the last time was in the 1990s.

Absolutely yes.