Can and May

I understand that the difference between "may" and "might" also involves tense. It always annoys me to see things like "If the river bank had not been so steep, the girl may have been saved". IMO it should be "might have been saved", as she has drowned, and there is no way that she will be saved now. It seems to me to give false hope to her family that she may be alive, as "may" is in the present tense and "might" is in the past tense, just like the poor girl!

I'm not sure that I am putting this clearly enough (particularly for Pedants' corner) but does this make any sense?

MollyAA12

Oh dear if I said 'May I have a loaf pleae?' I would be thought of as rather old fashioned.

And wg´hy should sounding old-fashioned stop us from sounding politey?

We are old, after all, or getting on that way.

I am never confident about shall and will, and I have discovered the reason. According to my copy of Fowler's The King's English (1936):
SHALL AND WILL:
'It is unfortunate that the idiomatic use, while it comes by nature to southern Englishmen.....it is so complicated that those who are not to the manner born can hardly acquire it; and for them the section is in danger of being useless.'

Not a hope of understanding as I am a Midlander a female and definitely not to the manner born!

MollyAA12

Oh dear if I said 'May I have a loaf pleae?' I would be thought of as rather old fashioned.

The youth of today would ask, “can I get a loaf please?”?

I thought I remembered a discussion like this some time ago. Yet another thread resurrected! Nevertheless, it is a discussion which can be continued.

11/05/2021 11:14greenlady102 : "I shall eat a biscuit" differs in determination from "I will eat a biscuit" the first is a simple prediction of a future event, the second indicates a dermination to do something regardless.

Regardless of the rules, I would understand these as exactly the opposite.

"When I've finished this job, I'll have a cup of tea and I will eat a biscuit" Simple statement of something that will happen in the future.

"I shall eat a biscuit!" conjures up a picture of a defiant child, stamping their foot whilst saying "shall"!

This thread reminds me of my grandmother who would always reply to the question “Can I have…………….? “ with “ Of course you can, but whether you may, is a totally different matter”.

My hairdresser cancelled my appointment. Her text to me:

"Please may you give the salon a call..."

Sounding rather old fashioned needn’t stop you saying it.

Oh dear if I said 'May I have a loaf pleae?' I would be thought of as rather old fashioned.

Ah! The might of the subjunctive
And in being discussed in May!

In Scotland we were taught that I shall, and we shall express the future, while in all other persons the future is expressed by will, as in he, she, it , you, they will do something tomorrow.

I will do it or the use of shall in the other persons expresses determination or an obligation imposed by a higher authority, as in the Ten Commandments "Thou shalt not steal" this is as we all know a moral obligation, not a matter of an intended future action.

"May I?" implies that I am asking permission, where "I can stand on my hands" tells the listen that the person is physically capable of the action.

I believe that may and can should be used in this manner in all parts of the U.K. whereas the shall/will usage depend in some contexts on Scottish grammar versus English grammar.

"might" is implying a lesser likelihood than "may" whereas "should" implies that it is even less likely to happen, or can do so, at any rate.

Try teaching the differences to foreign learners of English!

And of course American usage differs, as you might have guessed!

I always err on the side of caution and say may

At my school "May I be excused?" was standard. It was so much taken for granted that 'being excused' was the normal euphemism for going to the toilet .

When my nephew was at nursery my SiL noticed, to her annoyance, he had started using "can I" inappropriately. In her endeavour to educate him he became confused and started to say "may, can I". His confusion? My SiL's close friend was called May.

That made me smile and brought the memory of schooldays.
We had to put our hand up and say “ please may I leave the room”
The whys and wherefores were not stated.
Whether you were allowed or not depended on the softness of the teacher or whether or not he/ she liked you.

Mr Murphy might have asked "What is stopping you?"
Sunny replies "You yourself and the school rules".

Mr Murphy: Thank you Sunny for being polite. You may be excused.

geekesse

ExD

I remember a similar discussion in Latin lessons over 'shall' and 'will'.
I shall drown and no-one will save me.
(but I can't, for the life of me, remember what it was all about).

Simple inflection of 1st person in conjugation; I shall, you will, he, she, it will, we shall, you will, they will.

you missed the bit about inversion for emphasis....so "I shall eat a biscuit" differs in determination from "I will eat a biscuit" the first is a simple prediction of a future event, the second indicates a dermination to do something regardless.

At junior school if you put your hand up and asked “can I go to the toilet” our teacher Mr Murphy would say “you can but you may not” Lesson learned!

The Latin verb that means 'to will' is ' volo' from which we get 'voluntary' and 'volition' , and 'will' via I suppose German, which have connotations of intention.

The English 'shall' and its Latin equivalent is an auxiliary verb for predicting a future event, which may or may not have anything to do with anybody willing it.

I think the exception is when I am defiant "I shall if I want to!" an example of the transforming power of the subjective.

I was told by the teacher that the shall and will meant determination.

“I shall drown and no one will save me” really meant he wanted saving.

“I will drown and no one shall save me” really meant, don’t bother to save me as I really intend to drown.

?

geekesse you and I obviously shared the same teacher.
Mollygo 'May' sounds hopeful and 'might' sounds possible so I suppose it depends on what your meaning is, so they are both correct. (I think)?

How do foreigners ever learn English?

Mollygo LOL

ExD

I remember a similar discussion in Latin lessons over 'shall' and 'will'.
I shall drown and no-one will save me.
(but I can't, for the life of me, remember what it was all about).

Simple inflection of 1st person in conjugation; I shall, you will, he, she, it will, we shall, you will, they will.

I remember a similar discussion in Latin lessons over 'shall' and 'will'.
I shall drown and no-one will save me.
(but I can't, for the life of me, remember what it was all about).

Alexa

Which is correct "Labour may become popular again" or "Labour might become popular again" ?

I learned may implies more likely, might implies less likely.
Used in your context, I’d retreat behind a barricade rather than answer!