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Pedants' corner

‘When I done my degree….’

(94 Posts)
Witzend Sun 30-Jul-23 14:07:49

Just seen elsewhere, aarghhh…..

Dickens Mon 31-Jul-23 16:25:24

Doodledog

That may well be true; but that doesn't mean that no journalism graduates can string a sentence together (unlikely) or that graduates in STEM subjects are all wordsmiths, as seems to be being suggested in some posts on this thread. There was a long period during which grammar just wasn't taught, and a whole generation of teachers never learnt it either, so couldn't pass it on.

Poking fun at people for not having been taught something is the sort of thing that teachers should be discouraging IMO, and is highly unpleasant coming from anyone else, too.

There was a long period during which grammar just wasn't taught, and a whole generation of teachers never learnt it either, so couldn't pass it on.

That's interesting. Why was it considered so unimportant?

I'm not very proficient in the one (and only) foreign language I speak - but if I hadn't had a grounding in English grammar, I think I would've struggled a lot more than I did (I'm not a 'natural' linguist).

Callistemon21 Mon 31-Jul-23 16:02:20

Fleurpepper

No, I didn't. And I was clearly speaking about England and Wales.

You were responding to nanna8 Fleurpepper, who quite clearly was referring to where she lives:

Everyone has to do English in year 12 hear, but. Youse can study up the paddicks if youse wants

I understood it, even if it was in Strine!

Fleurpepper Mon 31-Jul-23 15:51:05

No, I didn't. And I was clearly speaking about England and Wales.

Callistemon21 Mon 31-Jul-23 15:27:34

Fleurpepper

Callistemon21

Fleurpepper

nanna8

Everyone has to do English in year 12 hear, but. Youse can study up the paddicks if youse wants.

Since when???

As for numbers rather than letters, makes no difference. The English/Welsh A'Level system is very very narrow and specialised. It has advantages and disadvantages- but it does mean that only a tiny minority (as a 6th Form specialist for such a long time) take English language (which is mainly litterature) for A'Level.

My grandson is doing all sciences in Year 12, no English.

Yes, DGS is getting board wiv English now, nanna8 but I told him he has to carry on in Y12. He give a big sigh.
He likes his maths and sciences.

Fact- students in England and Wales do not have to continue with maths or English in Year 12.

Fact
Children in Australia do.

Perhaps you didn't realise, but nanna8 lives in Australia.

nanna8 Mon 31-Jul-23 14:02:11

Not English lit, just English. Many a student does brilliantly at maths etc but fails English. It limits their uni choices. Just as that horrible Latin requirement cut down our choices, back in the day.

nanna8 Mon 31-Jul-23 13:59:58

Fact- children in Victoria and as far as I know the rest of Australia, do.

p0Sy Mon 31-Jul-23 13:57:56

Your all so funny. I wish their was a like button on here

Squiffy Mon 31-Jul-23 13:48:56

Fleurpepper

Callistemon21

Fleurpepper

nanna8

Everyone has to do English in year 12 hear, but. Youse can study up the paddicks if youse wants.

Since when???

As for numbers rather than letters, makes no difference. The English/Welsh A'Level system is very very narrow and specialised. It has advantages and disadvantages- but it does mean that only a tiny minority (as a 6th Form specialist for such a long time) take English language (which is mainly litterature) for A'Level.

My grandson is doing all sciences in Year 12, no English.

Yes, DGS is getting board wiv English now, nanna8 but I told him he has to carry on in Y12. He give a big sigh.
He likes his maths and sciences.

Fact- students in England and Wales do not have to continue with maths or English in Year 12.

Fleurpepper, nana8 is not in the UK, hence the differences.

Doodledog Mon 31-Jul-23 13:15:40

That may well be true; but that doesn't mean that no journalism graduates can string a sentence together (unlikely) or that graduates in STEM subjects are all wordsmiths, as seems to be being suggested in some posts on this thread. There was a long period during which grammar just wasn't taught, and a whole generation of teachers never learnt it either, so couldn't pass it on.

Poking fun at people for not having been taught something is the sort of thing that teachers should be discouraging IMO, and is highly unpleasant coming from anyone else, too.

Blondiescot Mon 31-Jul-23 12:47:27

Doodledog

eddiecat78

I'm 66 and was never taught English grammar at school. In fact my grandchildren are taught it more than I was. For me, it made learning another language more difficult because I didn't understand what different tenses were etc.
Most of my understanding of how to "speak correctly" was picked up automatically because I read prolifically and was surrounded by people who spoke well (including those on the TV at that time)

There is a quotation that I can't find as I don't know who said it and can't get enough of it right to look it up, but the gist is that when someone pronounces something unusual incorrectly it means that they have only seen it written down, which shows more intellectual curiosity than having learnt it from someone else.

I think there is a lot of wisdom in that, although believing it requires a humility that many just don't possess.

I know exactly what you are talking about here. Having written for a living for my entire working life (and having to correct others' writing too), I can spot mistakes from a mile off, but I also recognise that people can have poor grammar or spelling for any number of reasons. What did irk me, however, was when we had potential job candidates applying for roles who simply couldn't even get the basics right. Quite a number had degrees or other qualifications in journalism or media studies (or similar), but still didn't have even the most basic requirements for the role. It was like someone applying for a mechanic's job who didn't know one end of a spanner from the other.

Fleurpepper Mon 31-Jul-23 12:37:16

Callistemon21

Fleurpepper

nanna8

Everyone has to do English in year 12 hear, but. Youse can study up the paddicks if youse wants.

Since when???

As for numbers rather than letters, makes no difference. The English/Welsh A'Level system is very very narrow and specialised. It has advantages and disadvantages- but it does mean that only a tiny minority (as a 6th Form specialist for such a long time) take English language (which is mainly litterature) for A'Level.

My grandson is doing all sciences in Year 12, no English.

Yes, DGS is getting board wiv English now, nanna8 but I told him he has to carry on in Y12. He give a big sigh.
He likes his maths and sciences.

Fact- students in England and Wales do not have to continue with maths or English in Year 12.

sodapop Mon 31-Jul-23 12:20:51

It's strange I can spot spelling errors at a glance but any numerical errors completely pass me by. My husband gets really frustrated trying to explain tax or bank issues to me.

Callistemon21 Mon 31-Jul-23 12:16:28

Fleurpepper

nanna8

Everyone has to do English in year 12 hear, but. Youse can study up the paddicks if youse wants.

Since when???

As for numbers rather than letters, makes no difference. The English/Welsh A'Level system is very very narrow and specialised. It has advantages and disadvantages- but it does mean that only a tiny minority (as a 6th Form specialist for such a long time) take English language (which is mainly litterature) for A'Level.

My grandson is doing all sciences in Year 12, no English.

Yes, DGS is getting board wiv English now, nanna8 but I told him he has to carry on in Y12. He give a big sigh.
He likes his maths and sciences.

Callistemon21 Mon 31-Jul-23 12:13:07

LauraNorderr

‘I’m escaping, I’m just on the boarder now’
Callistemon, I hope he enjoyed the experience, you are naughty.

blush

Blondiescot Mon 31-Jul-23 12:10:37

I give up. I'm board of this thread now... grin

LauraNorderr Mon 31-Jul-23 12:04:09

‘I’m escaping, I’m just on the boarder now’
Callistemon, I hope he enjoyed the experience, you are naughty.

Doodledog Mon 31-Jul-23 11:57:18

I no longer know if people are misspelling 'satirically' on this thread or not grin

Fleurpepper Mon 31-Jul-23 11:49:09

nanna8

Everyone has to do English in year 12 hear, but. Youse can study up the paddicks if youse wants.

Since when???

As for numbers rather than letters, makes no difference. The English/Welsh A'Level system is very very narrow and specialised. It has advantages and disadvantages- but it does mean that only a tiny minority (as a 6th Form specialist for such a long time) take English language (which is mainly litterature) for A'Level.

My grandson is doing all sciences in Year 12, no English.

Doodledog Mon 31-Jul-23 11:43:33

eddiecat78

I'm 66 and was never taught English grammar at school. In fact my grandchildren are taught it more than I was. For me, it made learning another language more difficult because I didn't understand what different tenses were etc.
Most of my understanding of how to "speak correctly" was picked up automatically because I read prolifically and was surrounded by people who spoke well (including those on the TV at that time)

There is a quotation that I can't find as I don't know who said it and can't get enough of it right to look it up, but the gist is that when someone pronounces something unusual incorrectly it means that they have only seen it written down, which shows more intellectual curiosity than having learnt it from someone else.

I think there is a lot of wisdom in that, although believing it requires a humility that many just don't possess.

Dickens Mon 31-Jul-23 11:29:13

multicolourswapshop

I got a BA at the ripe young age of 47 collecting various diplomas on the way a Diplom in management, a diploma in health and social welfare, a diploma in the care field. This eventually got me a job in the voluntary sector where I became a service manager for 18 yrs
Let no one say your too old to learn every day is a school day.

Wow!

That is impressive - I started to mentally deteriorate in my late 40s smile.

I really like your name BTW!

multicolourswapshop Mon 31-Jul-23 09:07:34

I got a BA at the ripe young age of 47 collecting various diplomas on the way a Diplom in management, a diploma in health and social welfare, a diploma in the care field. This eventually got me a job in the voluntary sector where I became a service manager for 18 yrs
Let no one say your too old to learn every day is a school day.

Dickens Mon 31-Jul-23 08:57:15

Doodledog

Firsts, like any other grades, are not in the gift of individual lecturers. There are checks and balances to prevent people taking it upon themselves to decide who gets what, and people don’t get to set standards of their own.

This applies within modules where there are different staff marking assignments, across different modules on courses and between different degrees. There is internal moderation at assignment levels, and External Examiners moderate between universities to ensure fairness there, too. If there is grade inflation (and I would agree that there has been) it is a sector-wide phenomenon.

I have had colleagues who liked to think that they could withhold marks, as in their heads their standards were somehow superior to others’, but they had to get off their high horses and accept that the system wouldn’t let them.

When it comes to regional ways of speaking, the chances are that non-standard English would be marked down in an essay, but much like on here, (where, for example, the use of ‘uni’ instead of ‘university’ is tolerated), in general conversation it doesn’t matter.

There will always be those in any walk of life who cling to anything that gives them a perceived advantage, and mocking others for syntax errors, and assuming that this denotes a lack of intelligence is a cheap way of doing so. One of the advantages of going to university is usually that students meet and mix with people from outside their ‘bubbles’ and learn to respect differences, but there are always those who are too set in their ways to benefit.

I rather agree with you, even though I've made a couple of jokes. Considering that my grammar and syntax cannot pass unchallenged, I'm being a tad hypocritical.

Some days ago my partner, who is Swedish (therefore English is not his native language), noticed that the word "disgusting" was not infrequently written as "discusting" and wondered if in fact it was an alternative spelling. This lead to a conversation about spelling / grammar, etc.

The English vocabulary is huge - one of the biggest - and certainly larger than his native Swedish, also Norwegian. When we both lived in Norway, I noticed that when a native Norwegian couldn't find a word in their native language to describe something, they would often use an English word. He said this is quite common in both Norway and Sweden - where English is the 'second' language.

He's quite fluent in English, both spoken and written and thinks it's a lovely language (he is an Anglophile anyway), and does not tolerate well those who mangle it. He is - in Swedish, pedantisk!

We both agreed that there is a difference between people who try to articulate, but sometimes get the spelling and grammar wrong (which I certainly do sometimes) and those who are just too lazy to bother or care.

I never pick on any individual personally for their spelling or grammar (people in glass houses, etc), but I make an exception when (usually on Facebook) a random person is insulting me because of my POV and does so in a diatribe full of spelling mistakes and / or poor grammar; particularly if that person has told me - as one particular woman frequently did - that I'm a deluded 'lefty' who should get a education because I think stupid. hmm

eddiecat78 Mon 31-Jul-23 08:16:32

I'm 66 and was never taught English grammar at school. In fact my grandchildren are taught it more than I was. For me, it made learning another language more difficult because I didn't understand what different tenses were etc.
Most of my understanding of how to "speak correctly" was picked up automatically because I read prolifically and was surrounded by people who spoke well (including those on the TV at that time)

Foxygloves Mon 31-Jul-23 08:06:12

When I later began working at the uni I was told off for marking too strictly. You had to work your ass off to get a first from me

As a former examiner for public exams (GCSE, A-levels) my marking and that of others was standardised at a Standardising Meeting. Any examiner who diverged too far from the standardised marking system after this meeting would be scaled down or up and would not find themselves appointed the following year.

Mamie Mon 31-Jul-23 07:52:11

Well said Doodledog.