dogs with a strong prey instinct - and small furries

jane10 - I still feel you are missing the point - of course I regret any cat being killed but 'lurch' has a right to protect his territory - and don't get me started on the cat that ripped my grandson's rabbit (in her hutch) to shreds - that is vicious behaviour
sighthounds kill quickly and then 'leave' if one is not quick enough to prevent them
really think this thread has run it's course - it became very personal towards me which I regret. It does not change my opinion of my lovely lovely dog or make me feel guilty for taking him on (when the alternative was so much worse)

Good post eloethan!

Oh dear, this is getting a bit cat v. dog v. humans isn't it.

I would have been very upset if my old cat had been attacked and killed by a dog and I would hope the dog's owner would make every possible effort to stop it happening to another cat. Perhaps, as I think Tegan said, by using a light muzzle. That sounds a bit cruel, but better than not being allowed out or being put to sleep.

I agree with those that say cats can also be problematic for people who are not cat lovers. My son and his partner get very annoyed about cats coming into their garden and pooing everywhere, and so does my husband - which I think is a bit of a cheek given that we used to have a cat ourselves. And our cat actually climbed in our neighbour's bedroom window and sicked up a fur ball on her bed. My neighbour's background is Pakistani and pets are not generally part of that culture but she was very nice about it.

It is a bit annoying coming across cats' poo dug into your flowerbeds. (The thing I find most upsetting about cats is their enthusiasm for killing - but fortunately my own cat was not very good at it - or the bell round her neck ensured that she never caught anything.) Squirrels can be a nuisance digging up your pot plants and your lawn, snails eat almost everything in sight, foxes scream at night and rip open black rubbish bags, birds sometimes poo on the washing you've hung on your line, etc. etc.

Personally, I think these annoyances are outweighed by the pleasure that pets and wildlife bring (to some people anyway).

amazed at the vitriol but heyho
to make it clear
when I walk 'lurch' in town or where there are known to be cats he is on the lead ALWAYs - have been castigated for it in the past by those who accuse me of being 'cruel'
he is not a bull lurcher - one of the more questionable crosses - he is border collie and greyhound
he is 'entitled' to use his garden to lazing/running in - of cats have any sense they would climb a tree or scarper fast and leave my wild birds/fledglings to survive
lurchers of an acceptable cross are not 'dangerous dogs' and he would never hurt a human being

moomin - excellent points! The presence of our dogs seem to be enough to keep any neighbourhood cats away. This is a relief because I feed the birds and get so much pleasure out of watching them.

Tegan - cockerpoos are prone to separation anxiety. Mine can be left happily for reasonable periods, sleeps downstairs etc. It takes work - as a puppy he'd cry if left in the kitchen whilst I went into a different room. It's a good job we love him

And how many do humans kill?

Oh apparently that should be 55 million each year, not 5 million

I don't often post and particularly so on what could be a contentious subject. However, after the second fledging was needlessly killed in my garden today by a wretched cat who was in no need of an extra meal and who litters my flower beds with faeces, I felt I had to say something.

I own an ex-racing greyhound. Last year a cat was at the bottom of the garden when she was outside as well. She chased the cat up the nearest tree, where it stayed for an hour or two. No doubt she would have made a grab for it if she'd managed to, no doubt the cat would have given as good as it got, maybe the cat would have been killed. I don't know.

What I do know is I have not invited the cat into my garden, I have not given it permission to go on a killing spree. 5 million birds are killed by cats each year. Let that sink in.

I'm not condoning any dog killing a cat, let me make that clear. But so long as cats roam freely as is their nature, they are going to come into conflict from time to time with a dog in it's own garden. The majority of dogs see a "foreign" cat as fair game.

I was speaking to someone the other day who has two cockapoos who suffer from extreme separation anxiety, even though they are litter mates and have always had each other. I would never put a muzzle on my dog when out and about. Even though we very rarely let her of the lead we do if there are no other dogs on the beach or if we're in a safe, enclosed field. In that scenario I'd worry that, if she did get lost, a muzzle would be dangerous. However, if she had complete freedom in my garden [which she doesn't she has her own garden] I would probably put a muzzle on her if there was a danger of her killing a neighbours cat.You can get very lightweigh muzzles these days [some people use them to stop their dogs eating yucky stuff when out walking]. As dog owners, and always being in the firing line for complaints, I think it's important that we do everything we can to prevent any problems before they occur. If cats didn't run away they would probably be safe with sighthounds. When you think about it, they are a breed of dogs that have probably lived with man longer than most breeds, and their relationship with man was to hunt for him, so it's unfair to demonise them for it. And, because they do have such strong jaws to kill prey, they have been bred to be extemely gentle with their human families.

Dog wars - any discussion about dogs so often polarises, or certain breeds are criticised. I understand Tegan's concerns about the many poodle crosses, and I'm someone who shares my life with two such dogs. I agree with Tegan that cocker spaniels are so often viewed as gentle, temperamentally sound dogs when in fact as she says, in breeding over years contributed to both health and temperament problems. I had a gentle, biddable blue roan cocker 40 years ago, since when I've had rescue dogs. I mentioned in an earlier post what a challenge my labradoodle was on the hunting/prey front. That pales into insignificance when compared to the challenge my now 3 year old cockapoo has been. He was carefully chosen from a reputable breeder, both his parents seen etc. His mum was a deep red show type cocker spaniel, dad a middle sized poodle. Dad's pedigree absolutely sound, I suspect the "issues" he has shown come from his mum. He is now a lovely, responsive dog but has needed more input than any dog I ever owned, including foster/rescue dogs who arrived having had awful experiences.
Both my vet and dog trainer say he would probably have been re-homed if we hadn't had the time, dedication and skill to help him. He is a very pretty dog, looks like Walt Disney designed him so he's a magnet for children. Luckily, lots of patience and work with him means we can now trust him to sit if children approach - my view is these cockapoos, labradoodles, etc are not novice dogs. Many first time dog owners believe the untruths on the internet about them being easy to train… they are very clever dogs and mine love agility and obedience work, they need it as well!

mollie65 I don't think lurchers are demon dogs. I like them. However, the thought of any dog actually killing anyone's pet cat is absolutely abhorrent to me. I was trying to be tactful in how I put it. Is there a place for pet dogs that kill pet cats? In my book -no! I know you love him but you alluded to his having a record for killing cats so how many distraught owners have been left in his wake?!

In fact, second highest on the American list I've just seen is the cocker spaniel which would surprise a lot of people but I have owned them myself and I'm not surprised, as inbreeding for a long time resulted in very aggressive/unpredictable dogs. They can also be very jealous when it comes to their owners, especially when introducing a new baby to the household, if the dog has been treated in a baby substitute sort of way. [I'm saying this as someone who absolutely adores them, by the way, but I'm very concerned about the cockapoo hybrids that are being bred]. Also near the top of that list are huskies; yet again a dog that I adore but don't agree with them being pets, especially when there are children in the house. Not in that list at all are the dear old staffies who have had the worst press of all due to the sort of people who often buy them [but they may be in a British list if I could find one].

I do understand [being an ex cat owner myself] how awful it is for someones pet to be killed by a dog and can also understand why they should be so angry [I would be myself]. But I'd like to know, statistically, how many people are bitten by sighthounds compared to other dogs and my bet would be that they'd come somehwere near the bottom [if not at the bottom] of that list.

and Jane10 - for your information I do not live in town - but in the middle of the country

mishap - that was harsh - he is not a vicious dog and it was not that I lacked any thought in taking him on (had a lurcher previously so knew the score) - I suppose in your eyes he should be destroyed
my neighbours understood that their elderly cat should not have been in the garden as they knew I kept him on the lead when passing their house but it would be unfair to do so in his own garden.
his recall (or observance of the word 'wait', 'leave it', or 'stop' ) is fine unless he spots his prey and I would add that my previous lurcher was the same and she had definately not been used for hunting.
I am amazed at the condemnation of lurchers as some kind of 'demon' dog dangerous to everything that moves both there and on mumsnet.
all rescue centres check that the home for a lurcher is cat-free if it is that way inclined - would you rather they were left in centres or pts. Cats should stay out of my garden and leave my wild birds alone

Gosh, I bet that took some doing, well done Dingbat!
Great name btw

Our spaniel leapt into the air and caught a wasp - and got a very swollen cheek for his pains. It could have been worse.

Awww Dingbat!

My dog adored his own cats –all six of them – and was fiercely protective of them, but he was a demon barker at any other cat that walked on our garden walls or had the temerity to invade his territory. He was all mouth and trousers so no animals were injured. One of my cats, however, was a mean machine when it came to hunting and often deposited the corpses of rats and squirrels at the bottom of the stairs. He never attacked other cats, though, but I would have backed him against a fox any time. None of the others, who were not related to him, had much of a hunting instinct, although I think Dingbat once caught a worm.

Our terrier loathed cats but never got near one - they would jump on to the fence and sit there taunting him and he would get frantic, jumping and barking until the cat got bored and went away. I am sure if it came to a confrontation the cat would have got the better of him and he would have run away.

Do dogs know the difference between cats, rabbits and other small animals? I think they do.
DD had a dog who would hunt rabbits, kill snakes (they live on a farm) but lived in a sort of tolerant indifference with the cat, as does their other big dog, who once squared up to the cat. The cat soon let the dog know who is boss and it was the dog who got a scratched nose and went away with his tail between his legs.

I currently share my life with a labradoodle and a cockapoo (I know, lunacy to have 2 poodle crosses). I've some experience of lurchers as my sister has them and I'm their holiday home.

My labradoodle is like many others who have standard poodle/working lab in their background. She has a high prey urge and for her first 2 years, believed she was on a mission to bring her prey down every time we left the house. I got 1 - 1 support from an experienced dog trainer when she was 13 months because she could scent a sheep/deer at very long distances. She caught and killed a baby rabbit at 13 months, which did nothing to diminish the hunt instinct. She has always been the kindest, most gentle dog - unless you happen to be a small furry animal, sheep or deer. Given we live on the edge of the moors, serious training has been needed. I wouldn't leave her of lead if I knew sheep were in the vicinity but a couple of months ago she did start to chase sheep who'd been brought down from the moors, we'd no idea they were nearby. I whistled and all the training has payed off, she did a complete about turn, came back and sat at my side. The younger cocker spaniel/miniature poodle cross just doesn't have the same prey urge. His dna is flushing ducks….

We're lucky in not having cats who visit our garden and squirrels are so fast the dogs have no chance.

mollie - sadly I'm not sure there is a solution with your dog, other than keeping it on a lead. The urge is so high isn't it. I've been lucky with my doodle but I have spent more time on the recall and leave it command than I ever thought would be needed. I also upped her general obedience training, took her through agility courses, with the help of the trainer, taught her some (not very complicated) tricks and did loads of work on the leave it command along with recall training. I suspect maturing and the training input have been the key things. Lurchers are a different ball game!

My dog has a beautiful temperament and would love to make friends with our neighbouring cats. His tail-wagging attentions are often perceived as aggressive but, as with our own very old cat (sadly, now dead), he only wants to make friends. Our cat thought he was a danger and biffed him on the nose. His eyes would widen and he'd jerk his head to one side, totally flummoxed as to why his friendly overtures had invoked such aggression.

As with humans, harmless intentions are often misinterpreted.

Our border collie likes to chase deer, but of course never catches them.
Except for once, there was a young fawn following its mother and it tried to hide in the hedgerow. Dog got right up to it, they were looking eye to eye, then she stopped and sat down. The fawn ran off to join its Mum.
The fun was all in the chase.

I look forward to meeting a dragon/dog! It's a new breed to me!

loop I know! My terrier is coming as a dragon/dog on Monday.

If it's ingrained in the breed then I think it would be very difficult to override that with training. Muzzling is a good idea but won't stop the chasing instinct which would be just as distressing for the prey.
I'm not sure neutering makes any difference.

Other breeds like terriers are often the same.