Not cared for

Refusing to communicate is the most damaging thing of all Gabrielle and as you say the domino effect goes on through the generations. Our GC will most probably never know us, their GP's.

When our estrangement first began with our son, all attempts to talk to him were met with 'I need space', 'I need time'; he's had his 'space' for over 3.5 years and it's made no difference at all.

Thank you Wendysue, our deepened relationship with our DS is indeed a beautiful silver lining to the cloud that casts a permanent shadow over our lives. Knowing that one of our 2 children, who were raised the same way, loves us as much as our DS does, has helped to validate us, not just as parents but as human beings. When your own child cuts you out of their lives, not just the pain but the feeling of worthlessness is beyond words.

Personally, I believe that the advent of counselling for everything, and constant "navel gazing", and an abundance of self help literature - and I say this as a fully qualified, albeit retired counsellor - has created as many problems as it has solved. Certainly regarding family relationships.

I believe my generation were more ready to accept that family dynamics were complex, and needed much give and take. These days, a lot of the thinking is that everyone puts themselves and their feelings first. Much of the advice given is that anyone perceived as having hurt or offended them is cut out of their lives without any communication, or attempt to sort things out. Unfortunately, this attitude has a domino effect, and affects following generations, who lose out on contact with family through no fault of their own.

Obviously, there are many and varied reasons why there are necessary rifts in families, and support for those people is paramount. However, I feel there are many occasions when the baby is thrown out with the bath water, through refusal to communicate.

annsixty

annsixty, yes indeed!

Ann60

I've been wondering whether or not we should get he to call in Tanya Byron to do some commentary on here. She is often in The Times on a Monday . Perhaps she could do a problem page type blog for us.

We do seem to have recruited our very own Agony Aunt?

What I mean is that, for example, a mother might think her DD should call once a week, but, for DD, once a month may be enough (cuz she's busy balancing work, raising kids, etc). Or she may thin she should see DS and GC at least once a month, but they only see her every other month or so (cuz they have to also work in visits with other GPs, friends, and so forth). In either case, it may seem to the mother as if they doesn't care, but really, it's just a matter of different expectations.

Bru, how often is that "occasional" phone call? Perhaps what seems "occasional" to you is quite often to your D? Also, I'm wondering how those calls go. May I suggest making them as pleasant as possible on your end and not complaining about how few there are? (Maybe you already realize this, of course.)

I know that total estrangement is not simply about that, ladies, though, sometimes, it may start that way. Also, I agree with Anya, that sometimes it's the fault of parents/PILs, sometimes the AC (adult "children")/CIL and other times, a little of both.

Smileless, it seems that as a result of the rift with your one son and his family, your relationship with the other one has deepened. What a beautiful silver lining to that terrible cloud! (I know you'd still rather not have the cloud in your life.)

It sounds as if you've got one of those DILs who knew from before she ever met you that she was going to try to cut her PILs from her and her DH's lives. And sadly, she has succeeded. TG, your other DIL is not that way.

Fist, Mollie and Brupen, I'm so deeply sorry for the loss of your AC. IMO, there is no pain greater than that. My heart goes out to you.

Second, I feel deeply, also, for all those of you who are estranged from AC or parents. Such a sad, sad, thing.

Chrissy and MiniMouse, please note, there are people here who are estranged from their daughters. It seems to happen with sons more often, but parents of daughters aren't immune, despite the old saying.

Brupen, I'm also wondering what those "half hearted attempts" were like. And how you reacted to them. Perhaps there's a key in there to how you could reverse this problem?

Generally speaking, I think, sometimes, it seems as if our AC "don't care" cuz we have different expectations than they do of what our relationship should be like. Other times, of course, there's a more serious rift like some of those described here.

My mother was widowed when I was 11, I was an only child. I and everyone who listened was told how much she sacrificed for me. I was expected to be grateful for all she had done for me for the rest of her life. Her disillusionment with me started big time when I married and didn't have her to live with us. She made it clear that this is what she expected. But I was never estranged from her, just lived my own life from 60 miles away, visiting regularly,having her to stay for all major holidays and looking out for her. I only grieved for what could have been when she died.

Re estrangements from parents. Sometimes it is the fault of the parent, sometimes it is the 'child'. Occasionally both are at fault.

Sometimes there are good reasons, sometimes no reason or no reason that makes any sense.

My issues with my mother (or hers with me)are regularly shared here. All her children saw her prior to Christmas and two of us will see her this week but we are so fed up of disappointing her that we don't want to see her on days that matter. She will have been well cared for in the home but I'm sure the staff think we are cruel as I know that she is very gracious to everyone in the home!

All is not necessarily as it seems.

Greenockgran, what on earth did your mother do to abandon her when old and not even tell her why, could no one give her the chance to put right the faults you saw in her. Not meant as criticism but cannot think of anything so bad as to do that, apart from abuse of course.

My daughter hasn't been my daughter all her life if she has ostracised me, and taken pleasure in doing so too.

My DS, on the other hand, even though a handful and I complain about regularly, did say that he would be at my side when I woke from my heart operation when I have it regardless of where in the world he has to travel back from to be there.

I think if a child has gone AWOL it is in their nature. We brought them up, and some are kind, but others would rather live their own lives. It depends on their nature.

In previous posts I have explained myself as awful (and I am) but still they hang around with their children, while I complain about the lack of manners, messy hair etc. They just laugh, and then improve on it.

What I am trying to say, is that no matter how good you are they will behave how they feel, and there is no reason for guilt as grandparents. They won't change. They mabye have a deep rooted problem real or imagined with their childhoods that you can't remember or identify with.

I have been lucky with my children, but in the end my Mum took it too far and our family (her family) left her alone. She probably died wondering why.

Sounds like you will have an interesting Christmas then, grannyactivist. I am also bilingual and although I have never worked as an agent I would not hesitate to do so if there ever was another war - Mrs Merkel had better watch her step

chrissyh "I think this is the main reason many women would like a daughter"

I know someone who was adopted and, years later, discovered that this was the reason the adoptive mother wanted to adopt!

OlderNoWiser I have experienced similar difficulties with other people in the past, but I have now met the lady in question and I'm happy to report that she's actually very interesting and highly unlikely to present the sort of problems you describe. I'm not sure that some of her war stories will help my Christmas lunch go down though - she was a very young agent (she's bilingual) towards the end of the war and remembers some of the events as if they've recently happened - some horrific things to have on one's mind at any age.

I think this is the main reason many women would like a daughter. As the old saying goes 'A son is a son 'til he gets a wife, but a daughter is a daughter all her life' though, of course, it's not true in all cases. My own husband thought a lot of his mother but it was always me who rang or suggested he rang her. It wasn't because he didn't care but some men just don't think that way. I know it's my dear DiL who remembers birthdays and makes sure we are included in everything. It must be hurtful but, as I said earlier, it is often just thoughtlessness rather than malicious.

That's so sad, Brupen.

When you say they have made 'half hearted' attempts to heal the rift, what do you mean? How did you respond to these? Why did they come to nothing?

Have you thought about sharing your feelings with them? Yes, you are all missing out. I hope you haven't lost hope.

I know this may sound daft but I'm glad to read of so many Grans netter shaving problems with estrangement from their children. I really thought I was the only one and must have failed drastically somewhere as a Mother. I had 4 children but my youngest died at 24years old. Since then the other3, a son and 2 daughters have pretty much abandoned me. There have been half hearted attempts on their part to heal the rift but it all comes to nothing. I know now that they just don't want or need me in their lives. I am polite when I get the occasional phone call (only 1daughter calls) but otherwise I just accept. The whole thing is really so sad. That's the only word for it. We are all missing out on so much. Not how I foresaw my retirement. I get incredibly depressed about it all,I gave birth to 4children,buried 1and somehow lost the other 3.

What a story, OlderNoWiser

Estrangement is always sad, whatever the cause. I often think there is a back story which people are either in denial about, or just don't want to share.

When I was between the ages of 12-14, I had an uncle (dead now) who was very creepy with me - he made me feel very uncomfortable and tried to touch me sexually. I am certain if I had not made sure I was never alone with him after that he would have done so - as it was, after two or three horrid encounters I never even sat on a sofa with him. I didn't tell my parents. On my wedding day, it so happened he gave me a lift somewhere and I was alone in the car with him, and he tried to engage me in some sort of sex talk. WHAT A CREEP. I still said nothing to my parents!

Then about 10 years later, my mother asked me why I was always so 'off' with Uncle X on family occasions. Apparently I was noticeably cool with him. So I told her.

She was horrified, and so was my dad. Nothing was ever done about it, and I never confronted him - just made sure my own children were not at any risk from him.

But I could have decided I was going to cut him and my aunt out of my life, and not told anyone why - just to avoid going into details, and to avoid the hurt that my grandmother would have experienced. I was certainly not going to the police. I didn't cut them out, as it happened, but I would have been perfectly justified in doing so. And then people might have thought how cruel I was (this aunt and uncle had no children and had a lot to do with me and my sibs).

I am not saying that this is necessarily the sort of thing that always lies behind estrangement - sometimes people are just horrible to each other. But as I say, there may be a back story that most people are not aware of.

Grannyactivist, may I give you a small word of warning. A few years ago there was a poor, lonely little old lady who lived down the road from us - always on her own except for her small dog. Although she had a son somewhere he hardly ever visited, so that, as she was also somewhat disabled and could not walk very well, we obliged when she occasionally asked us to get her something from the shop when we were on our way there anyway, as you do.

To cut a long story short, it ended with phone calls in the middle of the night, her crying down the phone, accusing us of not caring if we did not jump out of bed immediately to attend to whatever need she had at the time. We had to stop seeing her competely after she called the police twice, accusing us of abusing her and stealing from her.

She was completely mad, a total nightmare, and we breathed a sigh of relief when she was finally sent to a care home. I'm sure your old lady is not like that, but still ....

I have 2 daughter's aged 30 & 33. I only have a relationship ( very good one ) with the elder one. My husband and I divorced and my younger daughter decided she needed to take sides (!) And choose him. In this time she has married, had her own daughter and is expecting again. I have tried many times to heal the ' rift ' but sadly she isn't interested. I send birthday,Christmas cards etc but do not receive back.

I think it's definitely a reciprocal process. My DH isn't particularly attentive to his mother (dad died many years ago), ie he relies on me to remember her birthday etc. On the other hand he spent his youth convinced that she loved his two brothers more than him. He told me once that he loved his mother but didn't like her very much. I gather that both brothers were difficult children when very young, needed lots of attention, so it is probably not surprising that my DH felt and probably was a bit neglected. For what it's worth, she doesn't take much interest in him nowadays either. Apart from Christmas/New Year, there is hardly any communication between mother and son.