Support for family members cut out of loved ones lives 5

The downside to apologising for any real or imagined wrongdoing is that the 'wronged' party, be they sons/daughters and/or or their spouses, can use the apology as a stick to beat you with. You have to weigh up the risks.

You have 'apologised' which can be viewed as you were wrong and you have something to apologise for.

Often we are not dealing with logical individuals here as evidenced by some of the heart rending posts.

Mature individuals will accept an apology and the relationships can move forward but, we are often dealing with immature people who, for reasons often best known to themselves, really don't want a relationship with their parents/in laws.

As far as writing an email or letter to tell my SIL parents what's really going on I think I will wait until after the divorce. They will need to get him into rehab if they want him to live. The only problem is his dad is a drinker too just doesn't use the pilks and pot.
As far as Audebs graduation I guess that was a fantasy but he would see us and I'm sure it wouldn't be cool. So no we won't go unless invited.

Luckylegs**I do agree with you . After reading what this psychologist said I am just suggesting Mr. S apologize for what his son thinks he said only to open the door for negotiations. Once his foot is in the door you get in and talk about it. We don't even know what they think we did in my situation.
I'm suggesting that to see the GC for Smileless We all want the relationship with our grandchildren. I too would be guarded after that. At least, no matter how illogical a child is or how they misperseve the situation, their son wrote back rather than ignoring them. Sometimes you have to do whatever it takes to get what you want and deserve.

Yoga, just saw your comments about drugs. Could it be that this is what's really behind SIL's behavior and the way he has turned against you and influenced estD? I've heard before that drugs can tear families apart.

But Rhinestone, I don't think calling a grown man's parents can help. Even if he's not acting like a grown man. Even if they don't have addictions, themselves. Either they'll defend their DS or confront him, only to have him turn on you. Maybe I'm wrong, but, IMO, the "let's get together with the other GPs and solve this" idea is just a fantasy, sorry to say.

I feel for DD and the kids. I hope she does give him a divorce cuz it sounds like she's better off without him!

Smile, it just occurred to me - I don't know if you even want to think about it - but I'm now wondering if the "details" ES didn't want to talk about are in any disagreements you people were having before the cut off. Are there some things, for example, that DH said that ES or his wife got angry at? Those may be the key to what this is all about. But I don't know if you even want to take time and energy to think about that, at this point.

Lucky, how awful for a daughter to push a mother away just cuz she "gets on her nerves!" I'm so sorry! Maybe that just means she needs some space though? I don't recall how long the estrangement has been - maybe she just needs some time and will come around, eventually?

You know, ladies, I read these stories and my heart aches. If only, as some of you have said, these ESs and EDs would still let the GPs and GC see each other! I'm not sure how that would work though. It would take a lot of self control not to make any hurtful remarks or get into any conflicts in front of the kids, as one set of adults dropped them off with and picked them up from the others. There would probably be a lot of tension. That's one of the saddest parts, IMO, about these estrangements - if there's a strain between the adults, it must be hard to make room for a GP/GC relationship (sigh). Not defending the parents, just saying why the kids may often "disappear" along with them. That's why we sometimes hear of GC seeking out their GPs when they're older and can do that without parental involvement.

Hi Bohemian! I'm Wendysue. I don't think we've talked before, but I'm fairly new here. I'm not estranged from my DDs and GC, fortunately, but I know that "there but for fortune... etc." My heart breaks for all the estranged members in this thread.

I can only imagine what a shock it must have been to see that pic! (((Hugs))) I'm surprised your ED doesn't have you blocked though. Do you think she wanted you to see her kids or was it an accident? Maybe this estrangement is getting hard on her, too?

Smileless, I'm so sorry about DS' and DIL's decision. I'm another one who's wondering if they won't consider adoption. But, of course, they know that's an option. So either they've ruled it out or they just haven't come to it yet. Maybe they will. I wouldn't rule it out in my heart yet. Give it time.

As for ES' email - wow. What could you and DH possibly have said and done to warrant this estrangement?! You seem like such lovely, reasonable, loving people - I can't imagine that you could have said/done anything that bad! I'm so sorry that he tried to lay this all on you two!

Glad you people aren't upset though. In fact, instead, his reply seems to have been freeing for you. I hope DH can let it go now and not try to ask again about why he can't see the GC, etc. I'm glad ES' reply wasn't as nasty as in the past, but I don't think DH is ever going to get the response he's hoping for, sad to say. At least not any time soon (sigh).

Rhinestone, it must be very tempting to go to Aiden's little graduation. IMO, a lot depends on how much chance you think there is of reconciliation. Sorry to say, I agree it will "upset their (ESS and ESDIL's) day" if they see you there. And if there's any chance of reconciling that might end it or push it back farther into the future. So in that case, I would resist the temptation. But if you feel there's no chance, then perhaps you might as well go. For your own sake, though, please make sure you're truly going for little Aiden and not to "show" his parents or spoil their day.

Uke, I imagine you're right. But that's why online conversations like this are so valuable.

Rhinestone. When you are apologising, even though you did nothing wrong, how can you have a relationship with that person? You would be walking on eggshells, waiting for something else to go off. I know because I did it and in the end just couldn't anymore. It is not a proper relationship, it is like being bullied. If there is a problem, why not talk out with it, your children know they always come first and mom or dad love them to bits, why just cut of contact?. Think Smileless and her husband have tried so hard with their son, he knows he is missed and wanted back in the family. If you went to your grandsons Aiden's ceremony, kept in the background, surely they could not object to that.
AkeCan, fancy you meeting someone in a similar position travelling on a bus. Bet you both felt better for the chat. So sad so many lovely people have to bear the pain of estrangement. (((Hugs to all))) and??

Smileless I'm sorry it's not what you would have liked to hear but he did at least write back. At least you have an answer even though it was not the one you wanted. I read several articles that says parents should apologize( even if they didn't do anything) by saying they're sorry for what they did that they weren't aware of and to ask if they can make amends and move forward. Sometimes we have to grovel even though we know they ARE wrong. Would Mr. S be up to saying something like that just to make amends and see the kids?

Heavens we all have such sadness in our lives and still we somehow keep going.
I went on the bus to Glasgow yesterday and it was packed. A lady sat next to me and she was so nice and friendly and I have to say a very beautiful elderly lady. We chatted for the whole 2 hour journey and had a few things in common and of course we got talking about kids. I wasn't going to mention my problems as I find it embarrassing. However she dropped into the conversation that her 2 daughters down south live near to each other yet have no contact due to a fall out. So she has to visit the grandchildren separately. SNAP I said and told her a bit about mine, but not all the nasty details. Didn't want to spoil her day out! It just makes me think though, how many of the people we are in daily contact with have similar problems but just don't talk about them.
My heart goes out to all the broken families and I hope and pray that one day our problems will all be resolved. (((hugs)))

Smilless that's ?? we just dont know or understand how they can be so cruel,

What on earth can we have done to deserve it? Here's big hugs andn

At least he has one up on T she never ever responds. Or replies. She also changed her email address along with mobile and landline.?

So many loving cards, letter, presents, vouchers,money's, totally ignored for 7 years,absolutely totally like we don't exist not even courtesy of a thank you ever,???

Exciting we looked at new cars??internet red being so rubbish may be forced into spending some dosh??
We still love the Astra but want bit more powerful one mmm rather liked black one with leather heated Seats.

Went back acquacise, knees protesting
Also had great evening with our lovley old friends A and F,
Sometimes old friends see the best,

Oh Smileless }}}Hugs{{{

Come on Yogagirl, that book was just getting interesting.

Well Mr. S. got a reply from ES to his email. Not as vile and cruel as previous correspondence but rather unpleasant all the same. Soooo, to give you an edited version it's our fault that we can't see our GC, not theirs. We're not not seeing them because they wont let us, we're not seeing them because of what we've said and done, because we're terrible people. This is all of our fault, they're totally innocent of any wrong doing.

He can't possibly go into all the details again AGAIN!!!! when did he ever and even though Mr. S. told him 3 times in his email that he loves him, well, how is ES supposed to feel about that? How can he believe him after all of the hate, yes ladies that's what he said, the hate that his father, my lovely Mr. S. has directed toward him.

So now Mr. S. is a liar, as well as being a terrible human being, a really really bad father and unfit to be a grandfather he's a liar; when he tells his son he loves him it's just a lie.

He has to protect his family from evil doers, those on the dark side, he cannot possibly allow us any where the family he must so diligently protect and yet, and yet he continues to live just 15 doors down the road from us.

I thought I'd be upset but I'm not, I hoped that Mr. S. wouldn't be upset and he isn't. To be honest, I feel as if a weight's been lifted off of my shoulders, I do not feel in the slightest bit responsible for the estrangement, I never have, and I don't feel responsible for being unable to bring this nightmare to an end. It was only this morning when I didn't feel at all responsible for not bringing about a reconciliation, that I realized that I had been feeling that the responsibility to do so was ours, not theirs.

The extent of his self delusion is really quite extraordinary, he's living in an angry, bitter and twisted world of his own creation and it's really sad that those innocent little GC of ours, are having to inhabit it too.

LuckylegsI love your suggestion. I told my DH that we need to spend our money as only my DD deserves anything.
As for Facebook ... You can be on it and block whoever you want so they can't see any postings you put out there and vice versa. That's the first thing my ESS and his wife did to me. After they put signs up saying, " We are getting toxic people out of our lives" and " Respect is earned not given."
Our little Aiden is graduating preschool and they have a little ceremony. It would be nice to be there. What would they do if we just went? Boy I bet that would upset their day.
I cannot believe both my ESS and his wife's mothers are not worn out yet from all the babysitting they do for the two boys. It's unpaid childcare, not being a grandparent. Grandparents should be the accessory to a child's life not the parent. Call me old fashioned but if you make babies you need to take care of them and not push them off to your parents. We all ready raised ours. My grandparents and three great grandmothers were such fun, not worn out from care taking me and my brother all day.
Anyways enough of my middle of the night tirade. Have a lovely day all.

I think all mothers and fathers, that are being treated like dirt, should meet up and go on a holiday, spend the kids inheritance and send offending offspring the pictures on Facebook, of course. I would have a problem as I won't do Facebook, it was too upsetting seeing second hand the lovely time they were having and not getting a mention.

Yogsgirl you do so well. My iPad wont llet. ME scroll to recent posts so have trust memory ?

Funny sometimes word ideas come up like predictive text sometimes they don't.

Husband is dreadful. Old got my cold also his eye turned v blood shot got rubbish ex for suggesting doctor.

We did have amazing ham egg chips out as truest washed Down By pint Guinness mmm

However since got in gone downhill need sort is as out tomorrow got appt at bank a s WAnted find out my loyalty rate at nationwide. It won't be worth me reinvesting I. A. Is a ??will Bing it all in loyalty account as I don't pay tax.
Just sometimes would like bit input from Gra but he prefers leave all stress he can to. E??

Well he did ok I went mad and got him posh new shirt from marks and 2 pairs shorts for holiday??

Now he has take GD out in a huff.

Oh gosh Yogagirl gas leak that's worry, anniversaries they are always bit sad.
Smilelss hope you ok after the sad news, maybe even ??I know is only Monday.

Ucan my sister was invited to my GC's birthday party the first year I was cut out, she phoned me and I said that she would be the only one from our side of the family there and it's obvious why she has been invites, but it was up to her if she went or not. She didn't go, which pleased me, she sent really lovely gifts, but never got a thank you card or phone call!

Rhinestone your D will be much better off without her drug addict husband and maybe not such a bad thing that your GC heard their dad saying he wants a divorce from their mum, even at such a young age, they can remember highly significant things from their early years, and they will know it was not your D's fault. My ND remembers when her dad left us and I was crying and asking him not to leave us, which I'm pleased she remembers, meaning her dad can't lie about it.

Well the gas man has just phoned to save he will be with me shortly, now the sun has gone in and it looks like rain I know you are all saying "She's not going already is she, but she hasn't finished the book she's writing on here!"

Morning Girls

Lovely sunny day, but I have to stay in for the gas man, as had my boiler service this morning and there is a gas leak! I was going to put some roses on my mum's resting place, as it's 6yrs today that she went to heaven. I was surprised when my ND txt me that she knew it was the anniversary, she must have been thinking of them as when they left last night, after I babysat so they could go out for a meal, she took my mum & dad's 'special' chair to put in baby's nursery for when she feeds her. Strange it was the chair my estD requested to have when I cleared m&d's bungalow, it stayed in her & GD's room after they moved out from living with me, and then became part of baby's nursery here, here when she was born.

Smileless Some couple's who need help through IVF and stop, then find they have fallen pregnant, as all the stress and pressure has gone. This happened to a good friend of my ND, they gave up after years of trying IVF, went down the adoption route and she then fell pregnant, she has just given birth to a healthy baby boy . Also neighbours of mine, way back when I lived with M&D, adopted and she then fell pregnant straight after! So miracles do happen, if not perhaps they could adopted.

Celebgran good to hear GD is doing better, make sure there is nothing in your garden or grass that she is nibbling that could be upsetting her tummy. You say even though it's been 7yrs since you were cut out, you still think of T every day, me too, never stop thinking of them, that's a mother's blight in our case, when I hear an ambulance or helicopter nearby, I always think of estD as I'm afraid he will push her to suicide, she has no one to turn to for help if he turns on her again, as he did when this all began. His mother is as cruel & evil as he is, so she and the rest of the Grays, as before, would be baying for her blood, just like when this all began!

Ucar I think we all think like you, about being a failure as a mother and do not want to talk to others about our estC, even though we all know the truth, that in fact this estrangement is not of our doing or want.

Bohemian Don't look on FB, it's too painful, I don't. I did track down my GD's school web page, had a look and saw some pics, but I haven't looked since as too upsetting! Bitter sweet for you, as it must be nice, in some way, to know what your GC look like and to know how beautiful they are. You could always print the pics and put them away, just so you have them. The pics of mine are put away, to painful to look at!

LuckyLegs How awful for your D to say you get on her nerves! We all get on each others nerves at times, but it passes and then we get along again, so sad!

Rhinestone I think all of us would never have dreamt of cutting our parents or in-laws off but things have changed in the world and now it's not only acceptable to cut off your loving parents, but they also get a badge of honour from their mates and an extra aplume for cruelty.

pen Yes, what a shame the nice parents don't match up with the nice C and the one's that want estrangement to enhance their lives, to be together in the same families, then everyone would be happy

Smileless I'm so sorry about your son. Will he not even consider adoption? So many babies in orphanages waiting for loving parents. And what's with his job now?

My daughter is going to see my ES this week as the GC have a break from school. At least that's a start. She says she wants to talk to him about his estrangement from everyone but will do it where he doesn't feel threatened. He lives an hour away and tomorrow I will be close to him as we are taking the GC somewhere close to him. It just kills me that we will be so close so I understand how you feel Smileless.
I have been feeling down as I still am coughing from whatever it is I have had and the weather has been crazy here. Things are starting to bloom and then it snowed two days ago.
How do you ladies like our political candidates for president? Mr. Trump is sure putting off a lot of people.
Have a good day all. Celebgran and Luckylegs hope you are well.

YogagirlDrugs do change everything don't they? Yesterday my SIL told my daughter he wants a divorce in front of the GC. Now I know they are four and five but really ? They had all ready discussed it last week so he needed to say it again? And you are right they want others to do drugs with them. My SIL is out of control with pot and drinking now. I want to tell his parents who live in another state what is going on but my DD says they won't care or believe me because his dad is an alcoholic.
Bohemian My DH has no idea why my SS had ignored him the evening we took them for dinner a year ago. The next day my DIL told me her kids deserved a better grandfather. We write her back and let her know how we felt about her saying that. When I ran into my DIL's mom last summer she told me my SS had issues with my DH from childhood. My goodness I met my husband when my SS was fourteen and there were no problems. So why not have a conversation and clear things up? Why because they are cowards . My therapist told me the punishment does not fit whatever crime my DH committed unless it was a beating or molestation which never happened. At least if you don't want to see your dad .. don't buy don't keep your children away from their GP when the GP took care of them for the first three years of their life. To me that is child abuse.

Thanks for pm Smileless , makes me laugh as my ND phoned me last night after visiting a friend and said she gave baby some curry! and she liked it [the mildest] I bite my tongue about chocolate gate I'm babysitting at 6.30 whilst they go for a meal, so may have to post and come back later. Lots of posts to read!

Rhinestone yes my estD did know about the 'pot', when they lived with me, nasty said one day "D it's like you have a glass of wine to chill out and I have a joint", my ND told me, after I had been cut out, that he also snorts cocaine, so who knows what else! At the hight of my being cut out, I had a policeman come round [one of may visits] and I will always remember him saying "It will never be the same again" I thought 'yes it will' but 3.5yrs later I know he was right! He also said that if s.i.l is taking drugs, he will do his best to get my D on them as well, as they like the company and then if the are both taking, he won't feel so bad, hope he's wrong with the children and all. I think the light bulb moment will come when they are grandmothers themselves, so too late for us!

Oh Smileless, my heart goes out to you hearing the news from your ds. Lots if people cannot take the pressure of IVF and marriages break down. The important thing is that for them it is the right decision, they love each other and do not want to risk a future of uncertainty. Hard that you are denied your elder sons children. You have such self restraint, if I had been driving past when that awful dil was putting your beautiful grandchildren in the car, I would have stopped the car and spoken to them. I know what you did was the right thing, you didn't want the little ones upset, but how can that woman be so callous, surely the people you live by will know what she is like and how wrong her and your son is. They should be heartily ashamed of themselves. You don't know what the future holds. The lady opposite to where I live has a daughter that had five miscarriages, she couldn't face any more. After two years they applied to adopt, they have a lovely a son and daughter whom they adore, they always said they wouldn't adopt or do IVF, but obviously changed their mind on adoption.

Yogsgirl forgot say gorgeous pic of little one on F book! Xxx

Oh smileless my eyes filled when read your post, like me you only want your ds happiness.

I will be so sad if my son does t have his own children but whatever will be will be.
He seems happy so that's all I ask.

Back to chores. Not done much today ? Wow Smilelss you off on hol before us,cheeky.

Do so hope GD carries on ok or I will.not be able go leave her, stupid or what,

Bohemian I can so relate to that, we saw photo of our 3 Gra children couple years ago, 2 never met it absolutely broke our hearts,

That must have been an awful shock Boheminan. I'm glad I don't do FB, it's bad enough getting the odd glimpse now and again but to be confronted with photo's and seeing what your GC look like for the very first time, well I can only imagine.

Wouldn't it be lovely Penstemmon if all the adult children whose mothers don't seem to care could be put in touch with the heart broken mothers whose adult children have abandoned them and be a 'grandma' for those children who have a grandmother that just doesn't seem to care about them either.

I'm glad GD seems to have turned a corner Celeb, I hope she's much improved by the 13th, when you go away. How long are you away for? We're off on the 10th for 2 weeks and can hardly wait. My foot's a lot better, honestly There didn't seem much point in going to the docs as I know there's nothing they could do and I couldn't have done a boot like the one you had justice Rhinestone I just don't have the ankles for it but thanks for asking.

Hope you've been having lovely cuddles with your beautiful GD Yogagirl.

Skyped DS bless him he seemed worried about telling us that after much soul searching they've accepted that they'll not be having children of their own. They're concerned about the strain IVF could have on their relationship, they don't want their marriage to be defined by whether or not they'll ever be parents.

I am crying, just a little but my tears aren't for my unfulfilled dreams they're for them. He'd have made a lovely dad and she a wonderful mother. They know we know that as they know we'd have been great grandparents. Some things just aren't meant to be and I simply want my darling boy and his lovely wife to be happy.

We know the immense joy that children bring and also sometimes the pain. The loss of our ES has given us pain we could never have imagined but when I saw the look in my DS's eyes today when he told us, the pain I felt for him was as great if not more so.

Omg penstemon that is hard to understand from my viewpoint.

I find it very moving as my dear Grandaughter who not allowed see and only one I bonded with is 7 same age as your dgc

I expect my little one must ,ask my daughter questions.
I often wonder if she gets to see cards and presents we send, sadly we will never know,.

I will never be able to make sense of it really,.

I too have seen photos by accident it is devastating, worst one was of little one mentioned above at school and it really broke my heart thinking she has no idea that we love her and miss her so.

That must be tough, seeing DGC on FB but not really knowing them.

It is hard for the grandchildren too. I was taking my DGD2 (7yrs old) out yesterday and we were talking about families and relations as we were off to see friends of mine and their daughters andmy DGD2 wanted to know who was related to who. Then she said, 'so I must have another grandmother somewhere?' 'Yes I replied, it's xxxxx, daddy's mum' 'Oh , yes she does not want to see us really so I don't know her'
My DDs partner was estranged from his mother at 16 some 30 years ago (I only know his side!) but tbh she has not reciprocated his approaches to mend the rift. She has been invited to visit and was taken out for lunches etc, he has been to visit her and taken gifts. The DGC have never had as much as a card from her never mind a gift for birthday or Christmas or when she came on the couple of visits! She did not talk to the children other than to say hello. She is close to her daughter and her children. My DDs partner has now given up trying..he is not an easy chap I admit but he did make a real effort, supported by my DD, but was pushed away again. Some mothers it seems do not want to mend rifts.