Support for family members cut out of loved ones lives 5

Marg59. I agree with your post 100%.

Gosh what a relief, I thought my head cold had got the better of me and I was on the wrong thread; perhaps the other one recently started or horror of horrors on MN.

A bit like they do at these award ceremonies I'm going to bore you all with a list of 'thank yous'. Thank you Lucygransnet for your timely reminder about what this thread is for. I am surprised though that so many posts remain which are clearly "deliberate attempts to inflame the situation".

Thank you for your advice Luckylegs which is what I was doing anyway, scrolling through until I came across something worth reading.

Thank you Marg and Nina for your wonderful input. Despite accusations to the contrary it is always lovely to see new posters on this thread, those that give well intentioned advice, free from unnecessary criticism and scorn. It is obvious from all that you say Nina that as well as having personal experience of estrangement you've researched the topic too. What a pity that some on here refuse to take on board what you have to say. Ironic too when that's what the regular posters are frequently accused of.

Thank you Rhinestone, Wendysue and Celeb for well, for just being you. Hope all is well Yogagirl. Thank you Jenty, it's good to see you on here again and you too Rosyglow for your comments.

I got a particularly vile pm last year Jenty and re posted it on the thread so everyone could see it. It was deleted by GNHQ but that was OK, I'd made my point. I mean I often wonder when reading some of the more recent posts on here, how many of these would be said if they were face to face with the regular posters. That's bad enough isn't it, hiding behind key boards, computer screens and user names, but when a poster is so cowardly they resort to nastiness via pm, well there's not a lot more one can say is there.

You mentioned the nasty posts on MN from AC who've cut parents out of their lives Rosyglow, wondering why they have to be so cruel. Perhaps they're just not very nice and that's what's led to their estrangement. It does make you wonder though as has been said on this thread, why if these AC who've decided NC with their parents is justified, they've done the right thing and are happier without them, they keep banging on about it.

Yes, I know that's all we do on this thread but we're not happy that our children want nothing to do with us, that they're denying us our GC; we're devastated.

Now I've got that said, oh I haven't mentioned notanan and garliccake how about something much more interesting, me!!!.

Well prepare to be disappointed ladies ..... we had an offer on the house yesterday ...... 15K below the asking price, yes that's right 15K below. The first offer that the estate agent didn't even bother to ask us about was 17K below the asking price.

So, looks like my hopefuls weren't as hopeful as we'd thought. Wont tell you what Mr. S. said because that would be against GNHQ rules and regs. Now I know you'll all have plans for tomorrow but you know what's coming don't you, yes that's right, it's the open day between 11.30am and 1.30pm so pplleeaassee cross everything you can.

TGIF everyone and some, looking through the last 4 pages of this thread I think we could all do with one.

I apologise - being one who went off topic here, and shouldn't really be on this thread. Except that husband (second marriage) and his daughter, my stepdaughter, don't talk to eachother. But they haven't exactly fallen out. I keep in touch with her and her family.
Nina - good point about parents these days being expected to be perfect. I've often said (to anyone who will listen) I wouldn't like to be a parent of teens now.Ours were bad enough - growing cannabis in the greenhouse and pretending it was tomatoes etc.
But I'll leave now.

WendySue, I can reply more now. I have a business so when it's busy, I have to disappear. I am grateful for your suggestion though, thankyou.

As you might have gathered, I'm a writer, (book author), researcher and I also run an online support group helping parents who have been cut off move on with their lives. I run a business too. My research has shown that family situations are hugely complex. Take my own family for example, mother had me at 18, wasn't overjoyed, but then had 5 more children. I've studied psychology and CBT so the family pattern goes hence.....I was picked as the scapegoat, brother the golden child. My mothers behaviour towards me by singling me out as 'the problem child', meant that my siblings also treated me in the same way, (learned behaviour pattern). When I had my children, they grew up thinking that I must be 'the problem' because all my family said so. So the pattern of 'thinking and behaviour' moved into the next generation. This kind of situation goes on in many families so it's not rare and learning this has helped me accept my family situation although it did leave it's wounds and scars but I think thanks to my reading and studying, I have evolved and come to terms with things. If anything, I think I was the lucky one in the family. I got kicked out at 16 and in doing so, I was able to leave behind a lot of baggage, although I still carried the patterns of being rejected for some time. But true to the story of the scape goat, the story being in biblical terms, there were two sacrificial goats, one did get sacrificed, the other got cast out to fend for itself in the desert, my take on this is that at least I could carve out a new path and learn new ways of being. The upshot of being a rejected, black sheep member is that it makes you very independent and determined. It's hard to share such a story because people tend to judge you harshly. For example, they will immediately ask, 'what did you do so wrong that your whole family rejected you'? It's hard to defend yourself against such thinking so you tend not to tell your family story. But if you learn the psychology, and I mean scientific psychology, not the stuff on the internet, then a family behavioural pattern emerges and it all starts to make sense. One of the things that's emerged in my own research relating to estrangement is the definition of parenting. I think my generation was lucky, our parenting methods were far more relaxed and it was easier and less pressure to be a parent than it is today. As far as I can ascertain, this is what is causing a lot of the non communication between estranged parents and AC. The estranged parent can't understand where they've gone wrong because they can only relate to their style of parenting as it was governed at the time. The way parenting is governed today means today's generation of parents are trying to measure up to perfection. If they get it wrong, they are quickly judged as failing. It's far harder to be a parent today than it was when we were young parents ourselves. In this case, it's easy to see where the conflict and estrangement begin. Parents are blamed and judged based on what their AC percieve as poor or non acceptable parenting. For example, if we smacked our children, we weren't going to be faced with a visit from social services. Today, children are far more scrutinised and parents are nervous about being seen as not fit parents. When you put these two standards together, it soon becomes clear why parents and AC can't communicate effectively. This all arises from the 1989 Childrens Act. It hasn't changed things for children at risk of abuse because abuse happens behind closed doors therefore the law can only do so much. But it has penalised and made it much harder for good parents to be effective, (ie such as us). Today's parents are even more controlled and nervous about being parents. Then there are all the messages on the internet........'remove toxic people from your life'! What's a toxic person? Who gets to make that diagnosis? I've heard some describe their mother as being toxic yet really, she's suffering from reactive depression because of a traumatic event that's just occurred. If we exclude such people by diagnosing them as toxic, what does this say about our ability to empathise and be compassionate as well as tolerant? And so it's easy to see how the communication dries up and ends up being cut off. When people cut others off, with the exception of where serious, prolonged abuse has occurred, it's usually because they can't communicate or they can't get their message across. Other reasons are that they are so diametrically opposed (perhaps because of the generation they are from) that they can't understand the communication.
Regardless of the reason, no one can communicate effectively if there is no way to be heard. This goes for both the parent and the AC. I am always ready to listen to my daughter but at this time, her perception of me, which has partially been formed by the opinions of more destructive family members, (alienation), means she doesn't want to. Possibly because she fears incurring the wrath of those same family members. Another scenario entirely.

Juststrollingby.............I'm pretty hard to offend these days. ;-) x

Thank you, Nina!! Phew!

That does sound very upsetting.

The fact that there was a for and against list does sound as if some thought went into this. Who had written the list?

And what were the reasons for CO on that list? And the reasons with which you couldn't negotiate?

I'm really interested, because, as you know, I started posting because it sounded so much like your daughter has been cut off against her will.

Just strolling by I agree you have been kind and understanding thank you.

However it surely is not about what your children owe you? I didn't care for my mum because I felt I owed her respect I just loved her.

Sadly if only it was so simple to dismiss the fact that our ed won't talk to us because of definite reasons,
The letter simply said she had a new family now it didn't give any reasons that we could negotiate it was a fait accompli she had made the decision or rather our s in law had as he was one who rang thre next people to be cut off.

I felt v sad as when I last saw her we arranged date for my next visit and this letter arrived few days later, were her dad and I really just worth a 2nd class stamp ?
It was horrendous I still have the letter up in loft.

The dreadful thing was my husband then confessed he had seen a list of fors and against to cutting us out 1 reason against was the financial help we gave her. This was on our last visit. I really wish I had known so could have discussed this,
However if had got to this level maybe no point anyway.

It still makes me sick to think of it.

Just 3 years earlier we were financing and supporting her wedding and house purchase. It was a wonderful day still have the beautiful albums no one could have predicted the developments. I also still have the thank your us letter when ed said what would she do within it me?

No our ed owes us nothing but a little respect would be nice, respect is something we hope every human being is entitled to unless something awful has taken Place to destroy that respect.

Strollingby, no problem. Have more coffee. ;-) xx

Strollingby...........so we just blame the parents? That used to be the view but going by my research, this is fast changing. Experts are now looking at a different theory. For example, children that have grown up in a blame culture and an age of entitlement now have very high and sometimes impossible expectations of what parents are supposed to be and do. This is causing a conflict and is contributing to the breakdown of communication in some cases.

Arrgggg! I totally misread that, Nina!! Got the posts muddled. Ignore me.

Thanks for responding so quickly, Nina! More (((hugs)))

And thank you, LucyGransnet for getting us back on track!

Nina. You just said 'you can only change yourself'.

Marg suggested to you one tiny simple change that has worked for her that you could use.

Your daughter is not responsible for your childhood, your mothers marriage, 50's expectations or society today.

It's a simple question. The answers are 'thanks, I'll try it', or 'no thanks'.

If you can only change yourself, then change yourself.

Haitian, though, happily, I'm not estranged from any family member, I can see someone taking a break from a parent or AC if the relationship is affecting their health. Not everything has to be a permanent CO. Hopefully, during the break, the offending party will think things over and decide to make some changes. At some point, if nothing changes, I can see the first person fully COing the other. Another option is going VLC (very low contact).

Rhinestone, I so get wanting to see the GC, despite a rift between the adults. But I still don't get how that would work if the adults are NC or if there's a lot of tension between them.

WendySue, thanks for your suggestions. And the hug! I'll come back and reply more later but just quickly, yes I have tried to do what you suggest. It's not worked so far and now I'm just having some time out. If she emails again, I'll respond in the kindest, most sensitive way I can but sometimes even this winds her up. She is very changeable, that's just who she is. Bit like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get! We shall see. xx

Thankyou Marg59. Being an estranged child and an estranged parent, I can see it from both sides. The difference is though, a) I would never have spoken to my parents the way that some parents are spoken to, lectured at, put down, criticised today. Respect was always a key value. I didn't get it but I learned to give it. I'm grateful for this because apart from family, my relationships with others are all good. And long term, I've had the same friends for many years. B) I would never disown or cut off my child no matter how badly she behaved. I might say 'hey, go away and come back only when you can talk to me like I'm a human being'. But cut her off completely? No, never in a million years because I know how much it hurts for your mum to reject you. If you have a mum who is a pain in the rear and you don't like, but she loves you, you're lucky. We all started off trying to be the perfect parents but life and circumstances always come along that change things in a way parents can't control. We have to do the best we can and it's not easy. There are good times and bad times in all families lives. I know my mum had a tough life with my father. It made her cold and not very loving. Can I blame her for all 'my issues'? Well I could but it wouldn't solve anything. Besides, I know her generation had no escape from being married to a bully. She was completely squashed by who she was married to. Can I forgive her? Yes. But it wasn't me that cut anyone off. She cut me off so she will go her grave still being the same person she's always been. You can only change yourself. That's why sometimes, where there is no resolve, you just have to let people go. Especially if they're angry, critical, unhappy or just downright miserable and they are blaming you for it and projecting all their issues onto you. Doesn't matter if you're a parent, grandparent or AC. You're not here to suffer. None of us are.

Nina and Haitian, you and yours have clearly been through a lot of pain. My heart goes out to you!

Nina, do you mind a couple of suggestions? If so, please skip the rest of this post. If not, read on. A couple of years ago, I went through a rough patch with one of my DDs and like yours, she would periodically shut me out. For us, this was usually after an argument that escalated. So on the advice of a friend, I began to pay attention to when I felt things were about to escalate - and I would stop there. Just stop. Even if she were being rude, I'd just be like, "Ok, I'll have to think about this," and let it go, change the subject, whatever. Result - no more shut-outs/rifts. Could this work for you?

I also listened to her complaints and set about making some changes. Even though I had some complaints of my own. It helped. In fact, now we have a very good relationship. I get that it's hard to have DD throw all your "flaws" at you. But she's telling you what you need to do to make things better. Is there anything she points to that you can change? If so, maybe start working on them and let her know that you are? It might help your relationship. Maybe not but worth a try, don't you think?

Bringing up your mother is hitting below the belt though. ((( Hugs))) When she does that, I think you should end the exchange, saying you'll continue when she's ready to be calm and rational.

But maybe if you avoid escalation, it won't get to that point...

Best of luck!

It doesn't work like that. You've had a relationship with your child since they were born. If your child doesn't feel able to sit down and discuss a problem with you then something's gone wrong with your parenting because that should be a given.

Letters and emails cutting off parents come at the end of a lifelong dialogue. If your children don't want to 'give you an opportunity' to talk then the answers lie in the dynamics of your relationship. A very simple guess would be that they think no one will listen to what they have to say.

Yes but Strollingby, and I agree with you, the AC has to be mature enough to sit down and discuss the problem. Not send letters and emails cutting off the parent but then not giving them an opportunity to talk things through don't you think?

I just saw there was a second question.

Is it one sided to insinuate that parents can be discarded with no regard to the enormous hurt it engenders?

That is itself a one sided question.

A two-sided question for this situation would be

Can an AC who has been hurt by their parent, in a manner not accepted or addressed by that parent, cause hurt to that parent by withdrawing?

There are two sides here. Your side. Your child's side. They both matter.

You say you had a letter 'that no mother would want to receive'. That is your child's side. Whether you find it hurtful, baffling, unreasonable, vindictive, whatever label you want to attach to it, that is your child's side. And it matters. There is no way around this. Any route back to your GC involves facing that letter head on and going through it, and accepting that regardless of your feelings you must respect that that is her side.

It would probably be the most difficult thing you would do in your whole life, but you can do it, if you want to. And it would be worth it.

JustStrollingBy I hear what you say and personally do not find your tone aggressive. I do wish you all the very best in your future happiness with your children as they grow and hope their adult relationship with you brings many rewards too.

Rosy, yes, that's the post I referred to earlier - second one in that thread. Easy to see, IMO, why GNers began discussing it. True, some GNers got confused and thought the OP was about a GN post, too - it wasn't. But that was an easy error to make, I think.

Also, I think some people have mixed this thread up with the "Nasty" thread. It was in "Nasty" that people were, originally speaking of the MN thread, but then, somehow, it spilled over into this one.

Thoughtfully written Minty and Nina59. I am reading that it's as if, although you are both hurting and feeling sad at times, you've analysed the situation you've found yourselves in, accepted it for what it is, are no longer grief stricken, have healed from the pain and moved on with your lives.

I have only scanned through this extremely long thread and can clearly see sadness, hurt and pain being displayed from both sides of the coin. That makes me feel so very sad for you all and I wish there was a magic wand I could wave that would bring you all peace, happiness and fulfilment of life.

Personally, in my own situation the biggest frustration is that if only our daughter would consider talking to us, even just the once, a conversation where we could take on board the gripes, thoughts and feelings of BOTH sides, hers and ours, that would help, but she wont. Likewise with family counselling, she wont but this is her choice and who are we or anyone else to dictate what she should or shouldn't do ?

I agree that if your grandchild shared a pre estrangement relationship with you that he or she remembers well, that you know the child is missing you and that you know for certain the child is asking to see you but being prevented from doing so, this must be so hard on both yourselves as grandparents coping with the loss but especially so on the children being the innocent victims. I'm not sure how it would work though in the best interests of the children if arrangements were made for you to have contact with your grandchildren whilst their parent/s have chosen to go non contact with you.

I have never had a relationship with my grandchildren, they were born into the estrangement but if I had have had a relationship with them and their parents cut off from us, in my heart of hearts, I know that I probably would have let the children go too, not because I didn't love or care for them, but because I just can't envisage it would have been the right thing to do for the grandchildren, given the right messages, "I go to see nan but mum doesn't go in, she doesn't like nan or she doesn't talk to nan" If the shoe were on the other foot and I had gone non contact with my mother, I'm not sure I'd have let my daughter visit her either but for the sake of the child, I would have considered something I could have monitored, Skype, Facetime, letterbox exchanges of letters and pictures and maybe a couple of times a year I might have considered a trusted third party friend chaperoning my daughter to meet my mother at the zoo, park, pizza hut or wherever children like to go these days.

But that's me, we are all different in how we handle things.

As for my grandchildren, I miss the relationship I imagined I'd have with my daughter's children but in the best interests of the children, I would want to rebuild my relationship with their mother first before the grandchildren came into my life.

But that's me, we are all different in our views on things.

It took me a few years to accept that I just had to let my daughter go, leave her be, not harass her for a relationship with either her or the children. Cutting off is her choice not mine and I am just happy that she is living her life as she chooses, will be a good mum I am sure and where there is breath there's always hope that one day she will come and find me.

Celebgran, you asked me whether it is a question of respect, as Rhinestone put it.

You gave birth to your DC and devoted your life to her, as you said. That is what parents do, what I am doing for my children. But my children don't owe me anything for the choice I made to have them. They are their own selves, and will grow up to live their own lives, wherever that takes them.

If I am to have a good relationship with them as adults then it has to be that they want to, that they choose to because they feel loved and valued and happy when they spend time with me. Because they know that they are loved and valued and respected for themselves.

This is not an outcome that just happens. I am not entitled to a relationship with them in the future. I will have to adjust as they grow, and give them greater and greater autonomy until finally I hand them the reins and let them get on with it. And respect the choices they make, irrespective of whether I agree with them, because I know they have to make their own way and live their own lives. I'll always be there for them, if they want my support or help they'll have it, but if they don't, that's fine too.

So I think the answer is that it is about respect, but respect the other way. That as a parent you need to respect that your children are adults now, and if they feel they are being harmed through their relationship with you, then you need to address that or have no relationship.

Being a parent does not entitle me to respect from my AC. I will have to deserve it.

I'm sorry if you feel my posting style is aggressive. Tone is lost in forums. I am trying to speak very simply. I spoke of my compassion for your sadness in my posts, so I found it confusing to have them referred to as aggressive.