should the children be more important than the relationship

Sorry - I seem to have a problem with posting twice.

I don't think it was black humour. It was 'what can I get out of this relationship' rather than 'that seems an interesting person, worth getting to know better'.

I don't think it was black humour - it is all to do with 'what is the relationship going to give me' - rather than 'that is an interesting person, worth getting to know'.

I too remember that comment by Ethel. And I didn't for one minuit think it was black humour.

There are a lot of generalities being spouted about fathers and relationships as if they are facts. Every family was different, then as now.
My mother is well over 90yrs and doesn't fit the pattern at all. Her father was a farmer and so around all the time, he was the soft touch- her mother was the strict one.
When I was a single parent I needed a break even more- when there is a father around you can at least leave him to do baths and bedtimes, cook a meal etc.
Since DH1 died young I certainly needed to make sure that DS had plenty of contact with his parents, with and without me being around- (and with his uncles, aunts cousins etc on the paternal side). They came to our house and looked after DS when DH2 and I went in honeymoon (something we shouldn't have done according to some people on here!) Later on the came and looked after all 3 children. Everyone gained from this. What is to dislike about having extra grandparents?
Ethel appears to have a very dim view of men - all men.
In my world you settle down with the man you love and you have a child together as the expression of that love. You love and nurture that child equally. I get the impression that some people want the child, and the man is the 'necessary evil' who they then hope will provide the money, but not be hands on and equal.
I find the story of the Christmas cards appalling. If the man wrote his name, the child's name and then his wife's name - telling her that she was now second place we would call it abusive. Men seem to be supposed to take it. It is very dysfunctional and you feel very sorry for the poor child.

Yes, ethel I remember you posting that previously. You thought it would be a good idea to buy yourself some help while you needed it, then dump him when you recovered. It may have been a bit of black humour, of course, not a genuine plan.

If a man had suggested that he would use your affection while he needed your care and then dump you, what would you have told him? (You may need to use a few asterisks and acronyms in your reply - don't want to get censored)

'When I was ill last year I considered having a relationship,it would have been nice to have someone to cook a meal or take me to hospital appointments but having thought about it I managed very well on my own' .This sentence of yours concerns me Ethel.

My children come before anyone else in the world. And neither did I have my children to send to boarding school. The thought horrifies me when I hear of little ones going off at the age of 7. My son for special education needs it was necessary for him to weekly board at the age of 11, and I cried myself to sleep every Sunday night for the first term, until I started taking him back on a Monday morning. Having said that I have known Army families that are very close and as per normal the children were usually sent back to England for schooling.

However, I would have been screaming up the wall if I hadn't had my DiLs to come and take over several times a year so I had a day off, a week off or whatever. I was also a single parent for a few years and even more needed time off. Bringing up children is the most exhausting, the most rewarding thing in the world and the biggest responsibility we will ever be given to make them a fit person to be part of society. But it can be excruciatingly boring! We all need a break at times.

When I got together with my second husband, who was a brilliant stepfather, we travelled on Business a few times a year and always added on a few days holiday.

I am sure most marriages benefit from a few days away from the children - just to rest, relax and have some dedicated time. When you are living as a family however good if they are not his/her children it is even more necessary to have some time without the children.

I don't think it harms children whatever their age, and in fact helps them gain a little more independence.

Surely the big benefit to children is parents who have had a break and come back refreshed and therefore more engaged.
Nuff said.

Trisha I totally agree that even good relationships are rarely perfect.

I know my husband and I have certainly had our ups and downs over the years but after all this time we're in a good place . The small niggley stuff has been worked out so there's not much left to disagree on ( I do occasionally to keep him on his toes .

My Gran used to say ' marriage is not a bowl of cherries, sometimes your husband gives you the pip !!

Yes, "we" is not the opposite of "me" - sometimes things are for "me" or for "you" and sometimes for "us" - by give and take, or exchange, or just good old co-operation. It is not a war zone with the strongest grabbing all the power and annihilating the other.

Welcome back ethel, glad you managed to ditch that reikilady.

Every family is different, and every family was different in past times too.

ethel's family for generations seems to have been as she describes it -

"the father was never seen and the mother was the carer, the father just being seen on special occasions and ruled with an iron will, the kids were scared of them. My granny used to tell me what it was like for her, when father was in, there was to be no noise, children were to be seen and not heard etc etc."

- but mine wasn't - neither set of grandparents were like that, so neither of my parents were. Same with my husband's family - so we both came to marriage with a different picture to the one ethel is talking about.

That is what I meant when I spoke of us copying the attitudes we met in childhood, whether we mean to or not. But it doesn't have to be like that, if we recognise them in time.

I haven't read the whole thread but just want to pick you up on your last point ethel.
It's not a case of choosing to be either 'we' or 'me'.
It's possible to be in a relationship but still have your own interests, friends and identity, to enjoy being 'we' and 'me'.
Most of my friends in RL are like that and I'm sure many on Gransnet are too.

I haven't read through all the post, as yet, but to respond to the original question, I think it's basically up to the couple. If they agree that the kids are to come first, great. But I they decide that they're going to put their marriage first, that's fine, too. In my view, he most important thing is that they're on the same page about this and it's not a source of conflict

That being said, I don't believe that prioritizing one factor should mean that anyone gets hurt. I agree with you, OP, that it can be hard for under 5s to be away from their parents for an extended time period. And so, I don't think this is fair to either the child or you, the person who will be taking care of her/dealing with her feelings.

But what can you do? Nothing but love her and entertain her as much as possible during the visit. Please let us know how it goes..

Im back as ethel,thank goodness. As I said above some people are being bitchy, not the majority though. We all do the best we can with our lives just some of us can manage without a man. You do not have to be in a relationship to have a good life.
When I was ill last year I considered having a relationship, it would have been nice to have someone to cook a meal or take me to hospital appts, but having thought about it I managed very well on my own. I don't like being 'we' I like being 'me'.

reiki I refuse to get into any arguments with people about single parents I spent years doing it and found nothing changed some people's ideas. I actually find some of the perfect partner postings a bit unbelievable. Most people I know in relationships are like jings. As a friend of mine puts it "I really love him but sometimes he does my head in".

Actually I know where reiki is coming from and I don't think it is mostly about who has the child, or the parents' relationship which is what most people seem to have picked up on. It is about how things have changed over time and how the idea that children were the most important things in the family especially under 5s has changed so that now children are very much just an extra and the parents' lives, both their social or professional life, has taken over. I think it is a valid point and I think both parents sometimes behave like this. I think that sometimes under 5s today have difficult and stressful lives. That said it is almost impossible to turn the clock back, but I do wonder if a child is in a nursery all week whilst her parents are at work is it then OK to leave the child at the weekend as well? It might be nice for the GPs but is it good for the child? I really am not sure.

why cant you all live and let live, I know lots of single parents who bring up their children without a man and the kids are lovely and well balanced. The world doesn't revolve around adult relationships.

Look to our own history in past times the father was never seen and the mother was the carer, the father just being seen on special occasions and ruled with an iron will, the kids were scared of them. My granny used to tell me what it was like for her, when father was in, there was to be no noise, children were to be seen and not heard etc etc. The children were brought up well and seemed no worse than todays young ones.

So please don't insult my intelligence, I know some of you are really lovely and I regard as my friends but others are being really bitchy.
I love my DGD and she often stays over but just for one night and sometimes asks for her mum, I just think that maybe more than 2 nights is a bit much for her age.

I have never said that spending time with a grandparent is not to be valued. please refer to the OP.

I am amazed that anyone can think that caring for a relationship is a bad thing and spending time with grandparents not something to be valued.

My children had many happy times with my parents and my husband and I certainly valued the break and felt that a good relationship was the most important thing to make a happy home for our children.

As grandparents now we are about to have the pleasure of our grandsons company for a couple of days this week. Can't wait

I would feel sorry for any man to be told that he now comes second to our children. Children love being with other family members it is part of their development, that special relationship with grandparents is wonderful. They see a different world through grandparents eyes without mom looking over their shoulders. The father is just as important to your child as the mother. My late father and I had a lovely relationship, he was the one that took me out on a Sunday, walking and I developed a life long passion of going for long walks in local parks etc. We used to be out a couple of hours and when we got home Mom would have a lovely roast in the oven,mom would be sitting there with out cat on her lap drinking a cup of tea. I used to go shopping with mom on a Saturday and that was our time.

Psychologist, I meant!

I think if I was the husband that you told so forthrightly that you put behind your daughter in all things, Reiki, you might just have ended up being a single Mum! When you enter a relationship, it is because you choose that person above all others. Of course, any children which come along are of course important, and they develop and change your relationship, but they come OUT of that central relationship, and I don't think they can or should usurp it. I don't regard that as healthy in any way for any of the family members, and were i the amateur phychologist type, I might even be questioning quite why you were so eager to shift your allegiance from partner to child...

No doubt some people are selfish - in fact I know that they are - but I don't think that having a weekend off with adult only type activities is being selfish. It is good for all. I think that it is wonderful for a child to have an independent relationship with grandparents. My grandfather died when I was quite young, but I still remember the pleasure that we got with just the two of us.

Oh, I was thinking of the people I know, sorry!

Not sure how that translates into 'me,me,me'. Anyone would think they regularly jet off to the Bahamas for 2 weeks without their child!