Nasty thread on Mumsnet about a Gransnet thread

I've never ever known of that happen.

Of course the next generation have to be protected from those who could have an adverse affect on them
And the GPs in these cases invariably say the NC is unreasonable or "for no reason"

The vast vast majority of parents are just trying to to their best by their kids. If you know ones who aren't, alert the authorities! But children don't need to be protected from parents who have decided that NC with someone is the best for the family just because the person NCed disagrees with them about the decision

Lots of parenting decisions are about finding the "lesser evil" out of two imperfect choices.

Of course it would be wonderful if everyone had the choice of a full house good harmonious family.

But if you don't, it's okay to not have the bed case scenario if you've chosen the better option, and that may be NC.

And in my case it's not really much of a hardship on the kids (not now that harmony has been restored by NC). They have other (nice) grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, family friends……

Lots of their friends don't have grandparents around for other reason: death, geography etc.

A good grandparent is worth their weight in gold
but a bad grandparent is not better than no grandparent

notanan and notgranyet, no one is doubting the sincerity or honesty of your posts, so why are you determined to doubt those of a GP who has for no justifiable reason been denied any contact whatsoever with her only GC.

"I've never known of that happen" well you have now because I'm telling you about it because it's happened to me. And invariably in cases where there is no justification, the adult children justify their refusal to let GP's see their GC by lying about them.

I haven't had the misfortune of your experiences but that doesn't render me incapable of believing what you say, so why are you both incapable of accepting that bad things happen to good people; that good parents are having their GC used as weapons against them.

"A good grandparent is worth their weight in gold but a bad grandparent is not better than no grandparent" and what about bad parents, where do they fit in.

"A good grandparent is worth their weight in gold but a bad grandparent is not better than no grandparent" and what about bad parents, where do they fit in

Bad parents are bad parents whether they are in contact with their own parents or not? so what's your question?

Not being in contact with an extended family member is not bad parenting.

It could be if the parent is depriving their child of a good relationship with grandparents.

And invariably in cases where there is no justification, the adult children justify their refusal to let GP's see their GC by lying about them

Very few damaging people admit to being damaging. Abusive people generally say "it's all lies"
That's a fact, not a statement of belief or disbelief at anyones individual story

I don't know what you think the benefit is to whatever % of AC who you think are making up their reasons for NC?

When you go NC you basically "take a bullet" for your children. You put yourself in the firing line of whatever the consequences are for the sake of the children. It's not exactly a position of glory is it?
I don't understand what you think the point would be for an AC who had perfectly nice parents deciding to go NC?

I have nice ILs, if DH were to go NC on them…. how would we in any way gain anything at all? name one thing?

It is bad parenting when there is no justification for it and bad parents have a better chance of being at least better parents, if they remain in contact with their own good parents.

"but denying children one half of their extended loving family just because you can, isn't a healthy option either."

That's making the assumption they're loving, not all are and some are abusive (and that includes emotional abuse).

"Not being in contact with an extended family member is not bad parenting."

I can only refer to my own personal experience both in my own family and that of friends. To do anything else WOULD be presumptuous.

My own experience means I don't assume. If I meet someone who doesn't have a relationship with a family member I consider that there's likely a good reason, whichever side of that they're on.

So parents who decide their children will have a better life on the other side of the world and emigrate are bad parents too then FarNorth?

or is it just those of us who "claim" abuse who are bad parents for NCing?

There aren't really that many people who cry wolf in reality!

As I've already said notanan, the respect given to you on this thread in that your sincerity and honesty is not questioned is sadly not reciprocated. As you say "very few damaging people admit to being damaging".

it's just amazing! if this was a thread about any other kind of abuse you wouldn't assume that a large chunk of victims claiming abuse were lying

Do you guys think the same % of people who claim domestic violence are liars too just because the abusive partner says so? or would you tend to believe that it's not something people generally make up for fun?

But if it's AC accusing their parents… suddenly there's "two sides to every story" and many are liars.

Now let's get this right shall we * notanan* no one is accusing you of lying, it is you who doubts the honesty and integrity of a GP who says they're being denied their GC without justification.

I'm qustioning the assumption that a large percentage of people who claim abuse are lying about it so that they can go NC for "no justifyable reason"

I'm asking posters what % of AC you think whose reasons for having to NC are lies?

And how does that reconcile with the % of other people who speak up and claim abuse are liars?

Just out of interest? what do you think? 50:50?

what are your best guesses?
% People who claim they've been raped who are liars:
% People who claim they've been vicim to domestic violence who are liars:
% People who claim their parents were too abusive to continue contact with who are liars:

a GP who says they're being denied their GC without justification

If we bring this down to basics - nobody has a right to grandchildren or children.
Having children confers no right to have grandchildren.
The idea of justification implies there is a right to grandchildren.
And that anyone denying this 'right' must provide solid reasons, as in a court of law.

I understand it is very hurtful to find you're not allowed to 'have' grandchildren.
It is still not a right.
Justification is not required, except as a courtesy.

Either your child has provided 'justification', which you deemed unsatisfactory:
or they chose not to offer this courtesy.

It can be hurtful, yes. I am sorry you are hurting.

But no-one has denied your right to a grandchild. There's no such right. Therefore, there's no right to justification either.

Going back to notanan's points: What decent parent would choose to walk away from loving interest in their children, free childcare and help with Christmas presents - unless there is, to their mind, good reason to manage without those things?

I tend to not disbelieve anyone who says there were abused in any way. The small chance of a "cry wolf" situation does not justify the victim blaming

Victims tend to eventually (hopefully) seek to leave their abusers.
Abusers seek out contact with their victims.

NCing makes no sense as a deliberately malicious act. People who want to hurt people generally seek to be around people they can hurt.

Interesting questions, notanan.

notanan I'm replying to your reply to me re the inconsistency of your position. I was actually talking not about the position in which you find yourself, but about the position you are adopting towards your mother, ie you have decided that whatever she does, there is no way she can change to your satisfaction. (I have read your subsequent posts in which you state you have given her many chances). I do wonder though whether you make a clear distinction between disliking the person and disliking the behaviour.

I can't help noticing too, that when you refer to a parent cutting out a child (in the case of drug addiction, your example) it would be to maintain the 'health' of the parent.
I can understand the parent of an addicted child withdrawing support because that support is enabling the addicted lifestyle, and withdrawing that support might be the impetus the child needs to start the road to recovery, but I can't imagine any parent withdrawing from the relationship simply for their own benefit.

But I have made no assumption notanan, I haven't assumed you are lying, far from it but you seem to assume that only bad parents are denied contact with their own child and GC and I am simply telling you that that isn't always the case.

I haven't claimed that I have a right GarlicCake and in answer to your question, a decent parent wouldn't "choose to walk away from loving interest in their children". Having "in their mind, good reason" isn't necessarily the same as actually having good reason.

It was a very brave and hard to watch documentary jane
They were beyond the "tough love" stage and having to protect themlseves. There had been several episodes of arson in their home when they had allowed their child in for example. They had other AC and everyone was being constantly damaged by the relationship. It was very very very sad.

I do wonder though whether you make a clear distinction between disliking the person and disliking the behaviour
I mainly dislike the outcome of contact, which is damage and trauma to the whole family.
Should I be satisfied by that?

there is no way she can change to your satisfaction
How many chances should I have given her (if the 100s I gave weren't enough?) How much damage should I allow on our family?

And finally, would you say "you have decided that whatever she does, there is no way she can change to your satisfaction" to someone who had enough of an abusive partner and finally left?

but you seem to assume that only bad parents are denied contact with their own child and GC and I am simply telling you that that isn't always the case

And how frequently do you think that it isn't the case, as a rough %?

I really couldn't say, apart from the thread I regularly post on on GN I go on 2 other sites, one of which is based in America and there are a lot of posters on that one in particular.

There's a lot of literature on the subject of abandoned parents, it's known as a silent epidemic so I would say the % of parents this is happening too is quite high but I wouldn't like to guess at what that % may be.

Roughly smileless: More than 5%? More than 20%? More than 50%?

To be fair I'll give it a bash:

% People who claim they've been raped who are liars: >1%, Doesn't never happen, but its too infrequent to say "two sides to every story" in general re rape
% People who claim they've been vicim to domestic violence who are liars: >1%, Doesn't never happen, but its too infrequent to say "two sides to every story" in general re domestic violence
% People who claim their parents were too abusive to continue contact with who are liars: >1%, Doesn't never happen, but its too infrequent to say "two sides to every story" in general

Of course, we know that many rapists say their victims are liars,
We know that many partner beaters say their vitims are liars..

It seems to me that Notanan has come to this thread almost seeking to validate her claims of abuse and her decision to go NC with her mother. I don't think anyone is questioning her situation or doubting her honesty, but what I find odd is that she seems unable or unwilling to accept that there are genuine grans here who give each other support and comfort. Her constant picking apart of others posts is disquieting. She seems very angry.

It's not as if there are hundreds or thousands here claiming their AC have ceased contact and denied them the opportunity to see their grandchildren. Therefore, if we are talking statistics or percentages, then the likelihood that the few (I repeat few) posters on the g/net thread in question have been good parents and are genuinely devastated at the loss of contact and the abuse they have been subjected to from the AC is going to be very high.

But you're not being fair are you * notanan*, your mind is closed to the possibility, no the reality that not all AC who have NC with their parents are telling the truth when they give the reasons why.

I know that abuse happens, I know from personal experience. Not at the hands of my parents but they did nothing about it when they found out what happened; I didn't walk away from them. I know from my own experience that it happens and I know from my own experience when it hasn't, not in any form.