Support for those estranged from family members. Moving on together,

Smileless, the grieving is only frozen in time if you let it freeze, you can move on and it will get easier, the first step is acceptance of the situation because you cant change it.

Another book is the reality slap which isn't about Estrangement but does deal with blows life throws at us.

I think smileless has moved on More than I have but as. My counsellor says it will always upset me til day i die, I am her mum so I won't ever reach a point where it doesn't hurt, I just get better at coping with it,

Been low day today tho, in pain, and dh at work and being little Gra daughter never seen 6th birthday,?

Oh, Jammytoast, my heart aches for you! I can't begin to imagine the pain and horror you've been through.

Glad you've found the counseling you need though. Wishing you peace.

Marg, I feel for you, too, in your estrangement. And I find your attitude about "estrangement bereavement" is beautiful and refreshing. Apparently, going by what other EPs have to say, it doesn't work for everyone. But there may be someone here, reading silently, who will find your words helpful and uplifting.

I don't think that having that "hope,' even if only in the back of one's mind, necessarily means keeping on trying to contact the other person. (I don't think you're suggesting that either.) Totally agree with Stella and Mumsy that this is just going to further alienate someone who has pulled away.

Ladies, I think the advice to "keep contacting" an ES or ED is well-intended but out of touch with the times. I've seen so many young people (on other boards) say that they just see this as "disrespect" of their wishes or that it just increases their need for "space" from their parents. I don't say that's true of all EDs or ESs, but I've seen it a lot. I'm glad to hear that there are now some books that mesh with reality.

Thank you Smileless

So true Mumsy

Well Xmas deco down and back to work yesterday no more hats

Wendy sue appeared again what on earth is beautiful or refreshing about bereavement? Living or otherwise whether it's attitude or comments death is ' final

Marg hidden in closet again v strange as I posted nothing but sadness refvmy niece stopping her child's dad seeing them and I still.do but that was 3 years ago!

I note nothing said positive just nasty veiled remarks who are u marg what axe do u have to grind as I asked u before?

Absolutely Mumsy. It was only when I accepted that our relationship with our ES was over that I began to move on with my life but coming to that point is much easier said than done.

Family and friends who in the beginning urged us to keep in touch with cards etc. (we never have done) now say that they feel they were giving us the wrong advice. I know that how ever much I might have tried to convince myself otherwise, that if we had tried to maintain contact by sending for eg. our ES a birthday or Christmas card, I'd be secretly hoping it would trigger a response.

We send birthday and Christmas cards to our GC, always buying 2 so that the other can go in their memory box. These aren't sent to illicit a response, we send them because we're their GP's and sadly it's the only GP thing we can do.

Jammytoast

I'm glad you've ordered the book Stella, I hope you find it as insightful as I did.

So sorry for your pain Celeb, I hope you have a better day today.

Meant Mumsy's post before this one. I keep thinking I'm on the last post, as I'm at the bottom of the page, and then when I post up pops new posts above mine

Thanks smileless its gynaecologist today ?

However we going for lunch first.

Xxx will always be my daughter nothing either of us can do about that.
I feel need to send her card as I remember day i gave birth to her so clearly and midwife handing her to me cord still attached, my husband was at home with our son.

So there is no right or wrong way sending cards keep a
Ink open, but,whatever really makes the estranged person able to cope.

I don't think ignoring birthdays will help, IMO but whatever helps your u smileless.

I keep trickle hope in my brain.

Fingers crossed for you Celeb, hope the appointment goes well. As we so often say on here, there is no right or wrong way of coping with estrangement, we all have to find our own way. Ignoring his birthday helps us but I understand that it isn't the same for you.

Come on Yogagirl do keep up.

I also firmly believe nothing is over until we die. Then our spirit lives on.

then relationship I had with my beautiful daughter has gone forever but who knows we may be able to form a new one one day that's why trickle of hope still there.

What I have tried to let go of is any bitterness or anger at the horrendous way her desrmdad and I have been treated because if not it destroys you.

Smileless I always was stupid and naieve regarding relationships ?Expecting More then people can give maybe, am bit more astute now, but still very vulnerable.

I asked dh what to do ref xxx birthday but he wants send card still so heighnho
I admire you for being strong enough not to,

Yes yogagirl. SNap to ti!??

I'm just wondering if any of the spouses talk openly about the estrangement? My DH never brings it up anymore and I don't know if it is easier to just ignore the topic or it's too painful to talk about it for him. We have talked about him writing his son a letter, which he never did. I think I am more affected and hurt and angry than he is. Should I just not bring it up anymore when it's the holidays or the children's birthdays? I don't know if I should urge him to see a counselor or just give up. I am someone who fights for what I think is right and I realize he is not like that.

Marg59, Thank you for remembering "it is cruel beyind belief to suggest an estrangement bereavenent is worse than an actual death." Because there is always hope. "Where there is death there is no hope.'

Mr. S. talks openly about our estrangement Rhinestone, we talk a lot about it together but not so much now with family and friends. I remember at the beginning of the 3rd year saying to him that when we're socialising we should avoid it, I mean what did we used to talk about before it happened.

Perhaps your DH doesn't feel the need to talk about it or doesn't like too. I too fight for what I think is right but all the fighting in the world isn't going to make our estranged children change if they don't want too. You could just ask him when a birthday or the holidays are coming up if he's going to send a card.

Yes, Lovey that would be a cruel suggestion to make. As I posted a couple of days ago the conversation at the time was whether or not it was harder to come to terms with estrangement than bereavement as an AC chooses to exclude their parents. It was not whether one was worse than the other. And no, for some of us there is no hope.

When it comes to relationships Celeb especially with our own children, you're no more naive or stupid than the rest of us. My dear granny used to say 'the trouble with us is we assume everyone will treat us as well as we treat them'; I think she had a point there. I sometimes wish she was still here; I can't help but wonder what her reaction would have been. She was Irish and a red head in her youth and boy, could she put up a fight when she felt inclined to do so.

I am afraid the thread has become unsupportive and at times unkind. I went back through the last week or so and reread my posts, the one I made on 24 December I am quite ashamed of. Talking about changing my will and the cost of presents. I do not want to be mean spirited and bitter. I let her go but because I feel powerless to change anything I realise I am still being the victim because I feel ashamed and it's a way of justifying the situation. Somewhere along the line I went wrong with her, how i don't know, but that decision I made to keep out of her life was right, she has the right to live her life without me if I bring her down, as a result I have made myself anxious and insecure and in danger of being a real pain, so this next year, I have to let it go and get back to being me, because it has always been on my mind.
I would say this is supposed to be supportive and for me it really has been, everyone's situation is different, but we all hurt the same.

Celeb, I realize you haven't been feeling well, etc. But please try not to twist my words. I said that Marg's ATTITUDE about ESTRANGEMENT bereavement is "beautiful and refreshing," NOT that there was anything "beautiful and refreshing" about bereavement, itself.

It's not hard to understand, IMO, that for many, the loss of their relationship with their loved one feels like a "death." I also get that they often grieve just the same as if somebody died. Unlike Marg and Lovey, I'm not critical of estranged people who feel their sorrow is worse than if someone had actually passed away - I don't judge the depths of people's grief.

But Marg said, "Where there's breath, there's hope" and I think that's beautiful. Obviously, you disagree and that's fine. We all have a right to our opinions. We should also be able to speak to each other with respect, IMO, without twisting words.

Luckylegs, sadly every now and then this thread does get spoiled, but it soon gets back on track. Theres no need to feel ashamed by venting what you are feeling its good to get your feelings out.
Ive cut my two daughters and grandaughters out of my will and Ive also drafted a letter to the courts in case any of them contest my will (with the reasons why Ive cut them out. ) It does not make me or you or any of us mean spirited or bitter. I refuse to reward them for their appalling behaviour towards me. Yes we feel powerless in the situation our kids have put us in, we didnt go wrong with our kids it was their choice to cut us out of their lives. We have to stop looking at ourselves for blame.

I agree with Mumsy. There are bound to be glitches on any long thread, but on the whole, this thread is very supportive.

Sometimes also, it takes time for new posters to it to bed in so to speak.

Oh, Luckylegs, I don't think you have anything to feel ashamed of. As Mumsy says, it can be good to vent. Isn't that part of what this thread and this forum is for?

Also, I think one of the consequences that difficult DSs/DDs need to face is that they might get CO of their parent's will. This is true whether they've CO the parent from their lives or driven the parent out with cruel behavior. I'm not saying I recommend it, just that AC (adult children) should realize that's a possibility.

If you do change your will, is there a way you could cut your D out of it but still leave something to the kids? After all, none of this is their fault.

Frankly, I would stop sending gifts if they're not acknowledged. Chances are, your GC don't receive them, anyway. Maybe "spend" the money on a savings account you'll turn over to them later or something. That's up to you, of course.

Wendysue what U are not readingnor understanding if youmpardon memfor sayingnso is that when someone albeit child, grandchild friend relative dies they don't do it deliberately, there is a set pattern of grief and people understand,

In an estrangement it is wilful horrendous behaviour,set out to maximise hurt on parents and grandparents in our case anyway but of course each case is different

That has nothing to do with my being ill or in pain it is just an unfortunate fact.

I had a PM giving me information about yourself is it true you run a forum in the states and formerly posted here on different name ?

That makes no odds to me your input is polite and sometimes helpful.

Sadly thread goes off track when some regular posters on forum decide to hijack it, always settles down so Don't be out off please luckylegs.

Mumsy Heart goes out to you absolutely correct I spent five to six years blaming myself until counsellor pointed out I did my best which is all we can do and it could well be my daughter and s I law are not blameless

Luckylegsnone of us are perfect, perfect human beings or perfect parents. For as long as I've been posting here, this has been a place to vent, to weep, to share our laughter and our tears.

For what it's worth, you didn't come across to me in your 24.14 post as bitter or mean spirited. You came across as a broken hearted mother. The sense of powerlessness that we all feel in this situation is sometimes for me, the hardest thing of all.

That's my attitude too Mumsy, our ES's decision to do what he's done has nothing to do with us and has no bearing on how he was raised and the parents that we are.

When I say that before the estrangement there was barely a cross word between us, it's true. I had rather a volatile relationship with our DS, both of us having strong personalities and neither of us being afraid to express how we felt. Mr. S. used to say at times it was a clash of the titans and yet, our relationship continues to go from strength to strength. During a long conversation last summer with DS, I said that the tragedy of our estrangement is that I suppose our relationship was never truly tested and when it was, it failed spectacularly. We'd never had a relationship problem to face and when it came, we didn't have the tools to rectify it.

I hope you're not feeling too bad today Celeb and that the pain is manageable.

We bought the 'brick' wall paper we'd decided to put up in our basement sitting room yesterday (the decision made before we'd even bought the house)and bought wall paper for the up stairs sitting room too. We came home with it in gold and just a sample in green to confirm our choice. We decided on gold but when I got up this morning I realised that green would be the better choice.

Back to the shop went Mr. S. to change it and he's just about finished putting it up on 2 walls. It looks fab. so fab. that I said how clever he is and that I wanted to marry him and have his babies, that made us both laugh because of course I've already done so.

Lucklegs9, talking about changing your will and the cost of presents had no appearance of mean spirited and bitter. I'm glad you realise she has the right to live her life without you, without changing your will or denying her if she comes.

Smileless correct none of us are perfect and wthat does include our estranged offspring ??

Thank you,just popped my second dose 60mg codeine and had some morphine with breakfast ?Keeps it bearable.

Good news drove to dovercourt and swam twenty lengths dh took mea s sadly our pool out action another month, i really feel better for it.

Gynaecologist was not v good are U taking note Marge ?

He,was so indecisive and couldn't find my blood test results for ovarian cancer mmm
In end he decided I needed internal scan to be certain so Got that to come.
He asked me to obtain copy of blood test results intact he said will redo but dh intervened and said I have been through enough withOut repeating.

Let's hope spinal chap is more on ball.

Poor husband hit car on Monday when we visited my friend who is living in. Libel home now he got flustered aboutmwhere to go and car didn't beep ooops let's hope garage can sort it.

It was lovely to see my friend settled and she is off to goa for three weeks Monday!
Been horrid for her losing her home after relationship breakdown.

Lucklegs forgot to say i,too agree with others nothing mea spirited about your posts.

Of course our estranged ones have then right to live their lives as they choose it is just,so sad they choose to be so cruel and totally lack compassion in our daughters case,
Marg another one for,u to note?

I would not mention details of wills on public page.

It is so hard for U lucklegs I can't imagine how I would feel without my dear husband and son, I feel for U so much.

Please try and remember u deserve to be happy and have a right to be here, we all do. Try and have small treats and remember U are not alone.??