Support for those estranged from family members. Moving on together,

Clearly, BettyB is here only to provoke those of us who are in this painful situation. She may have her own issues that she is playing out (perhaps she cut off a parent who is now dead and she is supressing guilt), or perhaps she is the real definition of a troll, and simply enjoys stirring-up unrest on social media as her way of seeking attention. Either way, I wouldn't waste my time replying or reading any other posts from her.

Yesterday my DH texted his son that he had heard he had back surgery and hoped he was recovering well. He then went on to say that he hoped they would be able to have a discussion and sort out their differences.
No reply from ESS yet and I am not expecting him to reply. At least DHdid the right thing that was in his heart.

I don't know what happened yesterday because I posted but it's not here. Maybe I didn't notice that even though I'd clicked 'post message' it hadn't actually posted. It's not easy being a technophobe.

Great posts ladies over the last couple of days.

Mr. S. has been at it again; wall papering ladies, wall papering. The basement living room is finished and looks just the way we'd imagined it and so is the study. In fact they look even better than I'd imagined so Mr. S., I've decided you can stay.

Well, I didn't get to the gym today and Mr. S, didn't make it into work due to a combination of bad weather and two road accidents. Fortunately, I found a little painting job for him to do so he didn't get too bored.

I hope your DH feels better for having sent his son the text Rhinestone. It just doesn't make any sense does it. Your dad sends you a nice message, hoping you're doing OK after surgery and doesn't get the simplest of replies. I think you're probably right and he wont respond. I hope your DH wont be too upset if he doesn't hear anything.

Yogagirl's right Celeb, gardening is just about the worst thing you can do with a bad back, anyway who gardens in January.

TGIF ladies

Just thought I'd share this post from Nina thought it would be of great interest here:

nina1959 Wed 11-Jan-17 11:34:53
I have recently read a book called Liota's Garden written by Francine Rivers. It's a nice but turbulent read chronicling how family life is distorted and often ruined by the interference of others.

Liota is at the end of her life, lives alone and anguishes over the daughter who fell out with her and never heard her out or forgave her. She misses her grandaughter who she's never been allowed to see or know and she just lives her days looking out at the garden she once cherished and reflecting on her life.
One day, her grandaughter tracks her down and Liota can't believe the turn of events. She hardly dare believe that the grandaughter will want to spend any time getting to know her especially as she's 18 and has plenty of other places to be, people to see, etc.

But the grandaughter falls in love with the grandmother she's never been allowed to know and stays close to her, learning her family history and piecing how it all went wrong together.
She discovers how her mother judged her grandmother wrongly and blamed her for things that had been set in motion by other family members who had made Liota a slave to their own needs. Liota had never been the mother she'd been judged as by her daughter and gradually the truth comes out about how hard Liota had to work to keep a roof over all their heads. Her own MIL had hated her and had fed this hatred into the mind of her daughter who also grew up hating Liota.
When the grandaughter confronts her mother, she loses patience with her self seeking sympathy and victim mentality. She disowns her for a while, leaves her to figure it out and moves in with her grandmother caring for her until she passes away.
By the time the daughter realises her twisted version of events has been a lie, it's too late to mend fences with her mother, she's died. So she has to live the rest of her life with regret. The grandaughter meanwhile inherits Liota's home and restores her garden so that she can stay close to the loving presence of the grandmother she never knew.

Good read but you will need tissues. x

Just bought the hardback book,...hurry-up!

book sound good, Nina59 is lovely lady who runs support groups.

Good post Stella14 couldn't put it better!

Gardening lol we were tidying up patio and stuff should been done last October when my ill health kicked off.
I set some more sweet peas also.
We felt good for some fresh air, do realise my back didn't feel the same!!

Today been great took my good friend out for lunch and despite awful weather and back managed do little bit bargain hunting and found pretty skirt!!

So sorry about your back, celebgran. Hope it feels better soon.

So the letter is "old news." I thought it might be. I was hoping it was of more recent vintage with some new information, but no such luck I see. Sorry about that.

And sorry about the weather and such that you're dealing with Smileless. Hope all is better soon.

Rhinestone, IMO, your dh did the right thing. If es doesn't answer, he's the one who's wrong, not dh. I hope dh knows that.

Tbf, ladies, Betty isn't the only one who asked celebgran if there were "clues" in the letter. I did too. So let's not all pile on Betty. It's a "natural" question, I think, particularly if, like me, someone doesn't know if the letter is new or old.

So sorry about your back, celebgran. Hope it feels better soon.

So the letter is "old news." I thought it might be. I was hoping it was of more recent vintage with some new information, but no such luck I see. Sorry about that.

And sorry about the weather and such that you're dealing with Smileless. Hope all is better soon.

Rhinestone, IMO, your dh did the right thing. If es doesn't answer, he's the one who's wrong, not dh. I hope dh knows that.

Tbf, ladies, Betty isn't the only one who asked celebgran if there were "clues" in the letter. I did too. So let's not all pile on Betty. It's a "natural" question, I think, particularly if, like me, someone doesn't know if the letter is new or old.

Thanks starlady

I don't think everyOne was appalled at betty b asking when letter was sent it was her statement that I must know what I did wrong?

Also that no one estranged parents for no reason. That isn't true sadly we suspect Our s i law is controlling her but she must be to blame also, however lat time her dad spoke to her she wanted him to see little ones, and s imlaw kicked off and was definite NO so that does give a clue,

We have to let it go and not keep raking up past our life is good now if only I could get my back better.

Your ED wrote a letter? Did you examine yourself and take any of her thoughts to heart? She gave you information on the issues, what did you do with that information?

This is what I meant, there are always clues, there is always another side, even if the EP doesn't think it's important or true or what have you.
Starlady if unread betty B post again unwill understand people's horror,

The only clue was I am not good enough for my Grandaughter I was only good to provide the money for house deposit, wedding dress, and new pram and private medical appt..
Apparently i was never really liked or wanted, just made us of,

It is a very bitter lesson to learn,

I am an EP / EGP and initially would have been upset and angry at any suggestion for example "estrangement doesn't just happen", However, with the benefit of hindsight I can see that it didn't "just happen" and kind of see where BettyB was perhaps coming from just perhaps could have worded it better. When I look back over my ED's teenage years, adolescence into womanhood and our interactions with each other and the family as a whole, each of us made mistakes, could have handled situations better, rather like the estrangement status could be compared with a slowly dripping tap over many years, not being noticed until it gushed into a huge flood of estrangement.

I think this conversation could be moved forward if EPs could understand "the silence" why all their efforts to make amends face a brick wall, why EC's just won't consider mediation or a move towards a compromise situation, even to part cut off rather than total cut off ? Their silence is what frustrates us.

Any EC's reading this who might be able to enlighten us, "why total silence ?"

"The only clue was I am not good enough for my Grandaughter I was only good to provide the money for house deposit, wedding dress, and new pram and private medical appt..
Apparently i was never really liked or wanted, just made us of

It is a very bitter lesson to learn,"

But celebgran, if sil is controlling ed, then she didn't mean those things. He may have made her say them. He may have meant them - probably did - but not ed.

If he's this controlling, that's emotional abuse, imo. Physical abuse could be involved, too. I hope you and dh have let ed know that you're always there for her if ever she decides to take the kids and leave him.

"... rather like the estrangement status could be compared with a slowly dripping tap over many years, not being noticed until it gushed into a huge flood of estrangement. "

So sorry about your estrangement, Stacy. But good simile! I think it fits a lot of the stories here. Maybe not all but a lot.

No matter if there were clues or not it shouldn't be okay to just snatch the GC away from loving grandparents especially without an explanation where there was no disagreement in the first place. IMO that's abusive to not only the GP but to the children as well. But it's another way of our children saying they are in control and not us. And while I'm on a rant .... the estrangement may have been like a slow dripping faucet but that does not excuse the whole faucet being turned off at once.
I believe that what you put out there will come back to you someday .
By the way ... my DH got no reply from his ES. I will never forgive them and never get over this.

In light of recent posts I thought I'd share this with all of you.

After reading Sharon Anne Wildey's book 'Abandoned Parents: the devils dilemma' I joined her on line support group. It's a closed forum and as such there is seldom any unpleasantness, but yesterday there was an unfortunate post. In response, Sharon said the following:

"Not since the beginning of time has one parent been perfect. We are human beings and therefore flawed in many ways. However, most parents do the best they can with what they have and that is all that can be asked of us.

The errors we make are a result of many complex circumstances such as what we learned from our parents, our peer group and the social mores of the times. .... We are not going to scrutinize those errors, big or small, not one single one of them. What we do know is that nothing we have done warrants ostracism, the most destructive and abusive thing one human can do to another.

..... I for one do not accept the underlying idea that shame regarding my imperfect parenting will bring my child back. This is not your fault. Not for a single minute."

With our ES Stacey it has been mostly silence for its duration, and when he hasn't been silent he's lied and expressed his bitterness, anger, cruelty and vindictiveness. Why? why silent for the majority of the time and nasty when he isn't being silent? Guilt.

It's guilt that makes him look the other way when he sees friends of ours who've known him since he was a toddler; it's guilt that's made him cut out his entire family apart from his brother, our DS who tries to maintain contact because he knows he's the only family member he has left.

One of our friends whose known him since he was a toddler saw him 4 days ago. She said she only recognised him because of his distinctive walk. He's gained so much weight and looks so terrible that he hardly resembles the handsome young man he used to be; he appears to have deteriorated even more physically since we moved just 2.5 months ago; she looks just as bad apparently.

I take no pleasure in his apparent unhappiness, I worry for my GC as I want nothing more than for them to be raised in a happy, secure and loving environment. I thought their lives may be less stressful once we'd moved as ours have been but perhaps that isn't the case. They live in a house we helped to finance and where our money remains invested, he lives in the village where he was raised, his eldest child goes to the school he went too and his youngest to the playgroup he attended.

They walk their dog where he walked ours, he passes the house he grew up in, sees the window of the bedroom that used to be his and passes people who were and remain our friends, who know how he was loved and who know there is no justification for his abandonment of us.

I know why it's happened, I just don't know why he didn't stop it and why he's compounded the terrible pain of his abandonment by what he's subsequently done and said.

I have never examined myself or taken any of our ES's thoughts to heart because at worst they are a total fabrication and a best, an internalisation of his wife's childhood. I know this because I knew her mother very well for several years before he ever met her.

That's heartbreaking, Smileless, just heartbreaking!

Rhinestone, I'm so sorry es didn't answer dh. How sad.

Ok, maybe it's because dh tied his message to a wish to see es. Perhaps es figures he really wrote just for that reason. Iv thought of that and perhaps you have too.

But why wouldn't a father want to see his son? He still asked after him even though he has been pushed aside for so long. Imo, es should appreciate that. But I guess not. So sorry.

On our way out but had to say smileless that is absolutely brilliant ??
The way that is expressed I totally agree ostracism is the worst thing and most cruel humans can do to each other let alone your own parents.

Starlady My husband , after saying that maybe someday they could have a discussion and rectify their situation, had put in the phrase," despite what you think I still love and miss the boys." I suggested he take it out as it says nothing about his own child, his son. It made it sound like he was just interested in the GC.
As far as your question of " why total silence?"My theory is that the silence is a cowards way out. If a person is so sure they are correct in their estrangement why would they stay silent? They don't want to hear the other side. They can't deal with the fact they may be wrong. They just find it easier to run away and not deal with problem solving. Ego plays a big part of this because they may have to admit of some wrongdoing. Personally I would rather have them scream and yell at me so I would get some feedback.
It just never leaves our heads does it? This has been going on even though we are away on vacation.
Smileless You alluded to knowing what went wrong. What did you mean by " internalization of his wife's childhood?
You are strong to have lived where you did for so long with the estrangement being flaunted everyday in your face.

A couple of the lies he's told, specific things he's accused me of never happened but I know that they happened in her childhood Rhinetone. As I said, I knew her mother very well before they met, in fact it was she who 'set them up' in the first place.

Her story is not mine to tell; all I will say is that it was a dysfunctional family in many ways and her childhood wasn't what it should have been. You may remember that they married abroad, with only myself and Mr. S. in attendance because she didn't want her parents there.

It's almost as if she simply couldn't stand our close and loving family, maybe it was totally alien to her and she just couldn't accept it as 'normal'.

I've written many letters to our ES over the last 4 years, never sent of course and eventually destroyed. I remember once writing that she was like a philistine, confronted with a piece of art considered by some to be thing of beauty. She didn't like or understand it, so she destroyed it.

Yeah, Rhinestone, I agree - adding that comment about the boys probably made it seem as if dh was just interested in them and the text about es's surgery was just a ruse. But es still could have said "I'm ok, thanks" or something brief like that. Too bad he didn't.

Omg, Smileless, my dd does that, internalizes other people's pain. Very empathetic, but too much so. Iv had to call her on it a couple of times when she was acting like something happened to her that didn't. She got the point both times though. Have you or dh ever told es straight out that these things didn't happen to him?

The philistine analogy is amazing! You are very creative!

Just wondered if anyone else has read the article in the Daily Mail today about Olly Murs` twin brother cutting himself off from the family and the effect it had on their mother ("I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown). It`s on the Mail online website

Surprise, surprise, the twin`s girlfriend was also involved

Rhinestone i too am sorry you s didn't respond to the message.

Sadly our daughter didn't respond either when I was taken to hospital in agony before Xmas,
Ignoring us is so painful,

I found out from friend that middle Grandaughter was 6 on 8 jan it really made me so sad inside as we never seen her.

Hey no just skyped my son and his partner and they talking of starting family that would be wonderful ??

Meant to sayneddicat not finished paper yet sounds Interesting.

Been good Sunday despit chronic pain hope everyone else had good day

We enjoyed drinks with my good friend and hubby who we should been going to Dubai with on Tuesday ?

Never mind we are going away for couple nights to potters. ??

Attached is a helpful article: www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/differences-between-forums.html

What a weekend. Woke up yesterday and water coming through kitchen ceiling, cancelled my lunch out, then tried to find someone to fix the leak, 6 hours later the leak was found and hopefully sorted, but nothing done about the sodden carpets and the dripping ceiling etc. So will have to put a claim in, first ever. I felt so alone I can't tell you, started to brood of my lost d and gd as there is no hope of me seeing them , so got to get out there today and be busy, won't help me to start overthinking again, it's only me it bothers.
You sound loads better Celebregran, despite your chronic pain, Smileless thanks for your post most helpful. Eddiecat, I read about Olly Muirs, not a big fan of his, but what a sorry situation, it sounds as if his brother has given up his whole family tor his wife, what a price to pay. Wonder how the child will feel later on when he knows he has been kept from one half of his family, he will reason that not all of them could be bad and question why. Off now to look at the adage in the light of day. Help!