Racism

Racism may have gotten less, but there are still some people who are just as racist as ever and others who defend them. Sounds like your father was among the first group, Mojowic, your sister is among the second and your mother somewhere in between. Please be glad that you and your dd are not among either.

Still, I'm sorry that your parents' prejudice hurt you, dd and gd. Please try to let gd know that their attitudes were outdated and not really about her. Please tell her the same about your sister's attitude now. Let her know that racism distorts people's hears and minds. Perhaps it will make her feel a little better. And it will be a good "don't-ever-be-a-bigot" lesson for her.

I grew up in the suburbs of Glasgow in the 50's and 60's there were a few mixed race families local to us ,two in our street ,black fathers white mothers and we all called the children half caste ....we never thought it was offensive and the children who played with the rest of us seemed to accept thats what they were called..not in a name calling way I hasten to add.The mothers were still included in the womens days out every summer and christmas when mums saved for a day or evening out with a meal and a dance if it was evening ..no men allowed.Strangely it has taken this thread for me to realise I dont really rememeber the dads apart from them both being tall and smiley black men whose kids would clamber all over them as they came up the street from work.I remember most of the dads so maybe these men kept a distance fearing racist remarks etc .As children it was nothing different to us but I dont think they ever spoke to us or joined in as some dads did with the football or kick the can games

Thank you Grannyben, and to all of you who have contributed to this discussion.

Antonia, sending to you. I truly am shocked by some people's absolute ignorance. May you continue to be the much better person xx

I get that, totally. I am very very privileged and lucky that I have never ever experienced a racist 'attack' or slant myself. The people of all shades and religions we met in South Africa the past 3 weeks have all been fabulous and friendly- even those who have very little and would have every reason for being very bitter, and even hate.

It was a hotel in Lucerne, when my DH and I did a rail tour of Europe. I think our travelling days are over now though, we just haven't got the stamina any more! I just wanted to add; it is beginning to sound from my posts as if my whole life has been blighted by a series of racist incidents. It hasn't, not by a long way. Most of the time my life jogs along very peacefully, and happily, it's just that when these things happen, you tend to remember them.

What can I say? Where was that? (by pm if you'd rather). I live in the French speaking part, and things are quite different here, but it can't be denied that racila profiling goes on at border posts and border control at airports. Same for all European contries- Italy, France, Austria, Spain, etc.
We went to Sicily last year, and the ONLY person stopped at the airport was a very elegant black man, with attaché case, who remained very calm and well spoken right through. They grilled him for almost 10 minutes and searched him- it was awful. I felt like interfering, but knew it was best not to. And wanted to tell him how we felt afterwards, but again knew it would be seen as patronising perhaps. Same for the USA.

Your travelling is going to me very limited. Never let one bad experience ruin your impression of a whole country- too sad.
Most reception staff in SWitzerland are not Swiss btw.

Granjura, I am so glad that you embrace difference. I don't think that children, left to themselves, absorb these ideas of group similarities and exclusions. I think the ideas of racism are passed on by adult family members. And don't get me started on Switzerland! I had a horrible racist experience in a Swiss hotel many years ago, (from the receptionist, would you believe, when I was a paying guest), and we have friends who live there. When they were visiting us, he admitted that when he returned to Switzerland from abroad he always opted for an all white queue at border control because he knew that if there was a black person in the queue it would take much longer to get through as the black person was likely to be thoroughly questioned before being let through. It is not a country that I would ever visit again.

There is a fantastic film on this subject (based on a true story) called The African Doctor, currently on Netflix. French with English subtitles. A "feelgood" film, despite the theme.

www.onnetflix.co.uk/the-african-doctor/25673

Antonia- people so often say that, about it being 'natural' to be afraid of difference- and I jsut don't get it. I grew up in a rural village in Switzerland where there we NO foreigners, apart from Italians. I was about or 7 when I saw the first black person, a priest from Africa who had come to visit our school. I was mesmerised- I'll always remember asking if I could touch his hair. He smiled and bent over, and I put my hand on his head and pushed - and he smiled, I smiled. It was a lovely innocent moment. When I was 10, we had a black neighbour who lived with a Swiss-Italian woman 2 doors down- he was so tall and slim and elegant- never talked to anyone. I met him a few months ago and told him how I remembered him and how I admired him - in his 90s now- he bought us a drink and we had a good natter.

Personally I was always attracted to people who are different- the Hungarian kids who arrived in 53, the Italian children who arrived in the mid 50s as part of family re-unification - and then the multicultural mix of London and later Leicester. Maybe I am a genetic 'loser' - but I am so glad of this.

was that in France, Felice?

When I was running a bar here a few years ago, before 9/11 I was dating a very nice Morrocan man.
3 British customers took me to one side and told me people would stop coming in if they saw 'someone like him' serving behind the bar.
I barred them, he was a PHD student at the time and I never told him what had been said. He tends to see the best in everyone and would have been very hurt.
I also had 2 Cuban barmen and no one objected to them although they were darker skinned than my friend.

The Berlin documentary must have been very interesting Granjura. Sometimes I do wonder if humans are not 'hardwired' to reject those different from themselves, in the same way that other animals will fight off a member of a different group. In the animal kingdom it makes biological sense, to keep available food within your own group and therefore ensuring that your offspring pass on your own genes ranger than those of a rival. Maybe we are not as advanced from an evolutionary point of view as we like to think we are!

There was a great documentary in Berlin a few years back. White German children were professionally made up and dressed to look like Turkish children, then followed as they went to the shops, asked for directions in the street, took the tram, etc. It was truly eye-opening. Maybe that should be a compusory experience for all, as Antonia says, you can't possibly know what it feels like until it has happened to you.

BTW - you would never know of my DH's mixed heritage, or his father's (now deceased) if you ever met him. English through and through. His mother was clearly part African, but considered herself as Afrikaan and spoke Afrikaans - she was extremely racist re blacks back in CT (the word 'kaffir' still makes me shudder).

Thank you all for your comments, I love reading them and I will let you know how it goes.

Just returned from 3 weeks in Cape Town, and learnt so much about the dreadful system of Apartheid - which destroyed my DH's family in 1948- as they were all mixed - part African, part Boer, part Indonesian/Malay, part English - and they were all born different shades and were labelled according to said shade. Visiting District six Museum was heart breaking- and although Apartheid came to an end in 94- it is still very much there in relation to housing, jobs, education, opportunities- with most blacks still living in shanty towns on Mitchells Plains with little hope of ever getting out.

Our grandchildren also have Swiss and French blood, Irish, Scottish, and Indian...

and that is the unfair bit, no-one, but no-one would ever guess or know. Genetic dice - they look Anglo-Irish, and grand-daughter has the blondest of hair and the bluest of eyes- so have other nieces and nephews.

What is so strange in the UK, is that areas with many ethinic minorities are generally NOT racist, and areas with few, are.
I absolutely loved living and teaching in very tolerant and open Leicester- which our relatives in leafy Surrey found 'bizarre'.

I think there's a lot in what you say Antonia about the level of education in an area, especially among the older generation. Real racism is often the result of ignorance, fear and an ingrained intolerance to difference.

A Chinese friend of ours is moving back from Hong Kong with her three children soon and that is her city of choice (is Harrogate a city?).

I'm glad your finding this cathartic and I'm sure it's helping us too to understand. I was touched when two Muslim friends came to my grandson's funeral in a Christian church and we had an interesting discussion afterwards on different religious traditions and practices around death. But mainly we just discuss mundain things such as grandchildren, recipes or politics .

Also, as Rinouchka says, there are the London suburbs to consider ( also still pricey.)

Antonia I know Harrogate quite well, it's a lovely town ( pricey though!) and think you would be happier there than London.Because there are probably not that many non white people living there, you would not be seen as a threat to anyone, therefore would be more welcomed into any community activities.I do think that is the case in many places tbh.Yes, it's always been considered a rather posh town, but the days of blue rinses are gone ( I hope) Good luck anyway, you can tell us how it all pans out, depending on where you settle down.?

Antonia do not write the greater London area out of the equation, if possible. There is quite a mix of cultures and skin colour even in the outer suburbs, as well as variety of house prices. You won't get as much accommodation, but you might feel more at home.
My elderly, demented woman was the exception rather than the norm.

The area is already fixed, Anya. We feel we need to be nearer to our daughters and grandchildren now. One DD lives in London and the other in Harrogate. London was out of the question with house prices being what they are, so we are looking to buy in Harrogate. It is possibly not the best choice! In fact, our elder (white) daughter has already expressed concerns about racism there. It is a beautiful town undoubtedly but there are a lot of wealthy, older, 'blue-rinse' types there, so I don't know how it will be. On the other hand, possible reactions are going to be an unknown quantity wherever we go. A few years ago we spent a holiday in Bath, which I would say has the same type of demographic as Harrogate, and I was not even remotely aware of any racist attitudes. Perhaps the general population is more educated? I really don't know, but I feel that our choice of location had to be swayed more by family than by possible negative reactions. Thank you so much for all your imput. I am actually finding it very cathartic to discuss it. It is not a subject that I talk about usually, even with my sister and brother.

Then choose your area very carefully Antonia if that's possible. I'm quite convinced that some areas of the UK are more racist than others.

I'd like to think where I live is multicultural and glad if it. I certainly hear a wide variety of languages bring spoken in the playground when I pick the GC up and different races are obvious from their skin colour and dress style. And I'm not aware ever of any racial tensions.

But then what do I know really? It's easy to say that when I'm.white.

What i can say is that I don't hear the racist utterances here that I used to hear where I lived before, even shockingly from professionals.

Granny Ben, yes, that is just what I am saying. To me, this is the kind of casual, non confrontational racism that can happen. It is non-reportable but still hurtful. No one is going to report that someone refused to sit next to you on a bus, it sounds so ridiculous! Grannyknot, yes, I am relatively new here. I mostly read threads but chip in occasionally when I am interested by a thread, and thank you for the welcome!
Rinouchka, I do agree that older people can be quite aggressive towards people they see as different. They grew up in a time when racism was deeply entrenched in British culture and when political correctness was non existent. During the nineties, racism became far less overt, but it was always there bubbling below the surface. At that time it became offensive to give voice to racism. Now, unfortunately, people are beginning to feel freer to voice opinions that were not seen as acceptable a few years ago. I have lived in France for the last 16 years and not experienced a single racist incident here. But the minute I go back to London to visit family then boom, it raises its ugly head again. Because of various health issues, we will be moving back to the UK permanently next year and so I am a bit concerned about being accepted there.

Antonia, I recognise the experience you describe and I so agree that you can recognise racism by the way the other person looks at you, even if no words are expressed. Although I am white European, as some forms express it, I can get very tan, depending on whether or not I have spent time in Southern Europe, and when I came to first live in Britain in the 70s encountered these situations very often.
I thought this was a thing of the past, however, but in the past few months, there have been a few incidents, even here in London. They usually involve much older people. One woman slapped my hand as I was leaning to pick up a piece of wrapped Cheddar in a well-known supermarket and told me to go back to wherever I came from.

I put it down to the fact that she was old and possibly demented, and moved on.

Antonia are you new to Gransnet? If so, welcome. Despite the unhappy theme of this thread, and your experiences, it is wonderful to have your honest contribution to the discussion, you sound as if you know what you're talking about.