Estrangement / Cut off Mum

Are you following? Wow, a fan club.

DaisyDog enough now. You've gone from thread to thread posting spiteful remarks that reveal far more about you than any of the posts on these threads. Leave them alone please. You've apparently got nothing helpful or kind to say so what's the point of just posting to be unpleasant and unkind.

Jayanna's friend knows. She doesn't care because she knows best because she's one of those.

Jayanna I don't think the responsibility of your friend's tiring actions is yours.

Fading quietly, as you did - tea in cafes, would be the pleasant approach to intolerable behaviour. I find it kind when people don't speak negative thoughts.

As for her dd, she has probably already told her mum and mum didn't 'hear'. Mum can sort that herself or let contact go to birthday and Christmas - really plenty of visits anyway.

Jayana, how about, "I appreciate your weeding my garden, but I would rather do it myself - it's part of the fun of gardening for me?"

Well Daisydog, it's clear from Jayanna's last post that she's not sure if her friends D has actually told her in no uncertain terms. Perhaps as you have done Jayanna, she's been side stepping the issues rather than being direct.

Bibbity 'don't believe her'. What right does anyone have to accuse someone they don't even know of lying?

Luckylegs"to just let a person drift out of your life because of their intolerable behaviour sometimes is sad". It's also good to keep in mind that because we cannot tolerate someone's behaviour, doesn't necessarily mean that that behaviour is intolerable. I'm not saying this is the case with your friend Jayanna as in her place, I'd find it very annoying to say the least. That said sometimes it's someone's intolerance that can make the behaviour of someone else appear intolerable, when that isn't the case.

Jayana, it would seem your friend is over the top but undoubtably loves her family and you. It is such a pity that her daughter cannot just be straight with her in a gentle way and just say what she feels, you too for that matter, to just let a person drift out of your life because of their intolerable behaviour sometimes is sad, she is a whirlwind but doesn't realize it. There are not that many people that genuinely care for us. I absolutely hate confrontation and have been that person that drifted away, but I wish I hadn't been.

Thanks everyone. The last three comments have given me pause for thought. Have they said? The thing is I haven't said Please don't rearrange my kitchen/weed my garden. I just sidestepped and said Lets have lunch out and explore some new places. Oh blah, I'm such a coward when it comes to this stuff.

Jayanna, you are a good, caring friend. Could you possibly put the situation to your friend in a question like you did about the stuffed animals? You know, instead of saying, "You do too much," asking, "Is it possible you do too much?"

Perhaps she'll brush it off as she did your earlier question, but it's the only way I can think for you to say it without hurting your friendship. But you know her and whether or not she's okay with blunt comments. If she is, then maybe blunt is the way. Otherwise, why risk it? It's not your job to fix her problems with ds and dil.

No matter what you say, she might just brush if off, anyhow. I agree with Norah, that ds and dil must have asked her not to bring so many toys or plan so many activities, etc and she just ignored it. Now she's saying she doesn't know why they're distancing themselves, but probably she's still refusing to face the issues they've talked to her about.

I'm not saying that's always the case, but this time, I think it is.

Spot on Bippity. Jayanna's friend knows, either ds or dil have told her. She doesn't care because she knows best. She has been a mom and her antics are brilliant. She's perfectly happy with the status quo as it doesn't waste her time, but she won't admit that because she prefers a martyr's moan.

Jayanna9040 You are a brilliant friend.

But don't believe what she's telling you. There is absolutely no way on the Earth neither your friends son or daughter haventbtold her to stop before now.
She may not want to hear it and so has decided it's not happened but for it to have gotten this far they've definelty at least asked her to stop once.

If she brings up the issue again in your position I would say what you've said here.
At no point do you come across poorly. So I can't imagine you're any less polite or articulate in real life.

You're a good friend Jayanna. You've clearly tried to make her see things from her D's point of view; I don't know what to advise I'm afraid apart from taking 'the bull by the horns' and if you do, I wish you luck.

It would be soif she ended up in the same situation with her D that she's in with her S; visits only on her birthday and at Christmas.

Jayanna your friend has obviously been behaving this way for some time, not a new thing. Such a shame that her daughter didn't feel able to make her aware of her own rules from the beginning, before it all got so crazy. Because of differing generational ideas, some grandparents obviously need things spelling out for them. I would talk to your friend, perhaps saying that something you have read/heard was about a grandparent being cut off because they were taking far too much on themselves without permission. Would she have enough self awareness to realise that her behaviour is the same?

Jayanna9040 I understood what you meant, she tells you she is bewildered by the reaction to her behaviour. Seems a bit self centered to not realise it's the behaviour of over doing partially causing the problem. Just curious, is there a problem with visiting her son birthday and Christmas? Would she prefer silence?

Actually she is so unhappy I would risk the friendship if I thought my speaking would help her put things right with her children.

I know Smileless. Of course they'll wonder where she is! I think daughter just can't cope with it all, but I don't know her well enough, just a nodding acquaintance.
When my friend bought the stuffed toys I did say oh would they have room, but she just said she would get them all and then the GC could chose what they wanted to keep. They wanted to keep them all, my friend was delighted, her daughter wasn't!
Some families do the straight talking thing and some don't. I think her daughter is going for retreat rather than risking a row. This is what her son did and now they are down to visiting at Xmas and her birthday.
But do I say bluntly, you do too much. She is my dear friend but I meet her out for lunch and coffee because she used to do the tidying/organising things at my house!
She tells me Norah because she telling me how hard she tries and nothing seems right.

Jayanna9040 I have to rest just reading about that level of activity. Really seems something your friend must know about herself, she tells you. I'd be inclined to leave well enough alone. Maybe her dd has tried to tell her and will just resort to fading away quietly, as would be the pleasant easy approach to intolerable behaviour.

PS and what about the GC; aren't they going to miss their fun loving whirlwind GM and wonder why they can't see her?

Just seen your post Jayanna. Your friend does sound as you say to be a whirlwind of energy and clearly has the best of intentions. Do you know her D well enough to suggest that perhaps she tells her mum that however unintended, her enthusiasm is a little OTT? That she doesn't like her mum cleaning and tidying her kitchen and garden. That she perhaps doesn't have the time and/or energy to take part in model making so would prefer it if she tidied the equipment away when she leaves. That they don't have the room to accommodate the 'collections' she encourages and the large soft toys she buys.

I can understand her D's point of view but asking her mum not to visit for a while does seem rather harsh.

That could have something to do with it Dorothy, that's the real issue regarding the silence isn't it; how can anything be resolved if they refuse to communicate?

As for our ES, apart from the 'little things' which IMO are no reason to estrange yourself from your parents, your entire family all but one member and deny that family to your children, there was nothing that he could have been so angry about, that he couldn't talk about it.

There's no way there could have been anything of such magnitude that we could have been totally unaware of it. If there was, why on earth did he spend the first 18 months of our estrangement fabricating reasons? Why tell lies when the truth could be told? Unless of course the truth is there was no reason. I know from some of the posts on this subject that some believe AC have the right to live their lives as they wish and so are entitled to CO their parents, I don't happen to share that view, but if that's the case, why lie?

No explanation is awful, I agree Granmary, but I'd have preferred that to the lies.

That must have been terribly upsetting GrannyRainbow. Do you think it might be an idea to tell your DS that they were included and ask him to check before he lets you have anymore?

My friend is a lovely caring person but she does go over the top with being helpful!
I know from her own accounts that when she goes to see her grandchildren she takes a lot of activities to do with them. Cooking, painting, model making to name a few. Then she leaves the stuff behind so that they can carry on when she's gone.
She loves taking them out round the charity shops and car boot sales and helping them make "collections". Last time I was out with her she bought several big (enormous) stuffed toys to take the next time she visited. It's only a little house with five people living n it!
She also tells me how she tidied the garden or gave the kitchen a good clean and sorted the cupboards. She booked a holiday for them all in Devon as a surprise without asking if they felt up to the drive.
She means so well but I can see why her daughter gets stressed. She's just a whirlwind of energy.

It's been my experience that when people don't explain (or debate) it's because they don't want to argue their points or justify their position. They have valid reasons and that seems enough. I find it tiresome to defend my beliefs, for many it may seem easier to just quietly walk away. I would agree.

Jayanna9040 the thing is, the little niggly things that would happen between my daughter and I might not have been apparent to a friend, nor of any significance. Of course, had they been noticeable to any other person, then yes, I would have taken on board their constructive criticism.

Starlady, I am 100 % certain that had I been thinking in the same vein ten years ago as I am now, it would not have lasted 10 years because 10 years ago I'd have just left her be and not pestered her to reconcile with me before she was ready to.

Smileles2012, 'tis the biggest torment isn't it, the cut off and then not being willing to even just talk about it to us ? I wonder if my daughter initially was angry too, couldn't or didn't want to talk, but then, as time went on just left it too late or rather feels now that she had left it too late ?

It does seem very sad and odd that people walk away without explaining ....even if the explanation was by letter or email rather than face to face, if that is too stressful. I can't get my head around that when parents say they have no idea etc. Relationships are such complicated things and can cause much joy and also much sadness!

Well, I thought my pain couldn't get any worse, but I've just received a load of videos, some of my grandson with my daughter-in-laws family over Christmas. All the love and kisses, fun and laughter that I will never know. I don't think my son would have sent them had he realised they were amongst them, so I'll just say oh how lovely, but it's ripped me in two again. Also he's the image of his dad at that age.