The Brainwashing Behind Going No Contact(1001 Posts)
I hope it's OK to post this here. I'm sure Gransnet will move it if it's not but in view of all those estranged, cut off parents unable to understand why their adult children treat them like they do, this very well written post sums it up perfectly.
It was sent to me this morning. Obviously some AC have no choice but to keep their distance from abusive parents, we understand this. But this NC approach being liberally recommended is a highly destructive trend ruining many lives.
' I am in the position that my estranged daughter is treating me like I'm toxic when I feel it's the other way around. We've been studying this for awhile now. Why are there so many adult children cutting off their families. These are things that we came up with. Something interesting: we've all noticed how our EC all do the same mean stuff and say the same mean things. It's like they're reading a script or like they all joined the same cult.
I have news for you. They are all reading a script. They did join the same cult.
What they are doing is called "Going No Contact". It's literally a scripted plan that they follow. It starts when they judge us as not just humans with whom they disagree, but "evil" because we don't see things their way. They complain online, and meet other complaining children who honestly believe, thanks to the self-esteem movement, that any time they were uncomfortable for a moment equals abuse. If their parents disagreed with them or made them do something that they didn't like or whacked their fresh asses when they talked back or refused to follow rules, they add this to their pile of justification. Lacking coping skills, they believe that anytime they are not happy, they have been wronged, and the person who dared to 'make' them feel bad is a Narcissist.
A Narcissist to them is what 'possessed' meant to our parents. The Narcissist is pure evil and a force to be feared and hated. They all bolster one another's justification of their interpretation of who we are. They swap war stories that are positively ridiculous, such as stories of the "evil narcissistic mother in law who wore a different dress than agreed upon to the wedding" or the "evil, narcissistic mother who took away all of their toys until their chores were done". I've seen both of those in these groups.
After justifying to themselves that they are RIGHT and their parents are EVIL NARCISSISTS, they begin plans to "Go No Contact". It is a systematic plan to discard the parents/grandparent, and turn the kids against grandparents. There are actual steps to this plan. They vary from group to group, but they are essentially all similar.
The groups talk a lot about setting boundaries, but what they call setting boundaries is just rude dictating, and setting their targets up to fail. Stuff like "I told my mother that she can come over between 12 and 1 on Sundays only. If she is one minute early or stays one minute late, that will be the end of her visits." Part of the plan is to NOT tell mother what she did wrong, just to enact the "consequence". They know that the targeted parent will try to rectify the situation. They react in a way that is illogical: refusing to answer questions, insisting that any apology is a manipulative lie and therefore is insincere, ordering parent out of their house, putting parents in that time out thing where they tell us not to contact them for a certain length of time, and then they will "review our request".
They post joyful stories of their parents reaction to losing grandkids or their parents pleas for an explanation. They cheer each other on and congratulate one another for cutting family off. Refusing to give any explanation is part of the plan. They call it Taking Your Power Back.
They claim that it's to protect themselves from the evil narcissists who are terrorizing them, but in reality, it's not about protection or healing. It's about power, control, and just being shitty. They don't know the difference between assertive and aggressive, and they think being arbitrary is the same as having boundaries.
Google "Going No Contact". You will find pages and pages of groups and instructions that will not surprisingly match exactly what our kids are doing.
I think this information can be very helpful. We can learn what they want us to do, so we can do the opposite.
I strongly urge every single person here to read up on "Going No Contact". It's like a map to navigate this territory. It even gets amusing sometimes, reading the steps and thinking "You're such a lemming". Who the hell would follow this crap.
They would, that's who'
I'm so very sorry Dogsjj and this may well be advice you'd rather not receive so I hope it doesn't upset you.
We have been estranged from our youngest son and only GC for 6 years. I wanted you to be aware of this so you'll understand where I'm coming from.
It is blackmail, pure and simple and I'm really sorry to be saying this but you can't trust her. She may get confirmation of her inheritance and then still refuse to see you or for you to see your GC.
My advice is this. Tell her you love her and your GC and hope that your relationship with them will continue but your will is your business and you will not be blackmailed.
I know how terrible it is to be denied your adult child and GC but your relationship with them should not be used as a weapon. This isn't a game and the terrible consequences of behaving in this way are all too real, for you and those children.
Dogsjj. If any of my daughters said anything like that I would not hesitate and say " if you want a share then start behaving like a daughter" blackmail works both ways.
For me it is unthinkable, it would not happen, all our girls know they are expected to get on with the rest of the family.
Brennan1 That is a generalistic, completely unnecessary and unhelpful post!
I am unsure what your thinking was in posting those comments. You seem to have picked out a few choice phrases ….."generational abuse"; "narcissism"; "Manipulative behaviour"; "Toxic"; "gas lighting" ….and then composed a series of sentences to get them all in! And frankly your "Bye" at the end appears to be deliberately trite, dismissive and makes you look rather silly when posting about such an important subject!
I have no idea what your background story is or why you feel the need to post quite so unpleasantly. However whatever the reason, it would be helpful if you could stop now before yet another thread gets derailed into pointless argument and unpleasantness.
If you have a clear point to make , it is perfectly possible to make it in a more helpful fashion!
I feel so sorry for you Dogsjj. I am very worried and depressed by the behaviour of DD who is very unwell, but caused a major row after we had spent all dayand evening baby sitting. She came home quite ill, and as we were leaving at 11pm to drive the 1 hour journey home, when asked to let me know how she was in the morning, exploded in anger that I should want to know, folllowed by her husband who I thought was going to hit me. I know she is stressed, but we have all been there, and no way would treat our parents like this. In 4 days I have had one word in a text. I feel she is trying to cut us off, except when we are needed. This brain washing of "go no contact" needs to be brought out in the open. Oldest DD shows signs of it, and I hear so much similar from friends. Can the press or Woman's Hour become interested and get it out in the open. There is so much depression and neglect around, it is undermining our society, and ruining lives.
I don't see why parents are being treated so appallingly, by children who were much loved and nurtured.
My children are no angels, but I don't allow them to go 'no contact' ....one of my daughters -in-law would love me to just disappear, but I won't give her that satisfaction. I ring or text every couple of weeks saying that I want to see the grandkids. My son works away ...he is only home for the weekends, so I understand he needs time with his family. He is definitely henpecked because he tells me to arrange visits via his wife, which I do. I tell her I am free all weekend, so she can pick a time for my visit. This way she can't have any excuse. I think I am a bit too accommodating, but if I want to see my son and grandkids, I have to be.
In my earlier post I recounted the no contact situation my sister has with her daughters, her own problems began a generation before. She was as rebellious second child and fell out with dad, there definitely wasn't any kind of abuse, I suspect the reason was, she wanted to go to the local youth club and was banned, resented it and it escalated. Next stage, at 14 she would always hang out with the "bad boys" at school and wanted to hang out at weekends too, again banned. At 16 she did it anyway, a few years later she married one, white wedding and quite quickly emigrated to Australia.
That marriage lasted 3 yrs, no children, no real harm but then she met a much worse "bad boy" had 2 daughters, the abuse in that marriage was bad enough for her husband to get jailed for 5 yrs. Both daughters walked out when they were 16, the elder one quickly found a boyfriend and joined his family - just like that!, and has 2 children which mother has not seen. The younger daughter went wild, slept rough returning home once a week to her "den" in the garage, until she was 19. Then joined the Army!, we were stunned but she got through the discipline and is still serving, having been promoted in the meantime, only after 12 yrs did she contact her mother again.
Both these nieces suffered apalling abuse and I'm sure blamed mother for not protecting them, the emotional bond was broken and both found a new bond, a new family in one case and the army family in the other.
All because of a seemingly trivial event a generation before.
It's a tragic tale David with something of a happy ending in that one of your nieces has made a family of her own and the other has made a new life for herself in the army.
My heart goes out to them all. Abuse is a terrible thing and the scars and memory of it last a life time. As you say, so much pain and heartache that began with a strong willed and rebellious young woman.
I hope that your sister has been able to find some peace in her own life.
David, how sad that siblings turn out so differently, both from a loving home. I hope your sister has found some kind of peace in her life, she has paid a heavy price for her choices. Your nieces must have been so traumatised, in their different ways they have made new lives despite the abuse, good luck to them, they deserve to be happy. I wonder if you can ever truly forget an abusive childhood. I took my happy one as normal, can't imagine how bad it must feel for children living inacdusgunctional, abusive family.
Both girls seem to have put the past behind them in their own way, sister now lives with a decent guy, so she has found some happiness.
My wife was a school friend of my sister and although they were never close, seemed to have a second sense of what was happening 12000 miles away. When our eldest daughter was 12 she warned me to be very careful what I said to our girls it amounted to " Darling, if you have any concerns about their behavior tell me, let me deal with it in my way".
So I did and it turned out good.
I have read number of the comments in the thread and it seems that many assume that parents have a loving relationship with their children who selfishly go no contact (NC).
I am in my forties and discovered the notion of NC only a few months ago. Support forums, therapy and existing literature got me to accept that I was abused as a child and I allowed the abuse to continue on the basis that it came from my family, lead by my mother.
Reading similar stories from others who have experienced the same was validating. Reading accounts from people even in their sixties still trying to heal and hoping for a change in dynamic established in the dysfunctional relationship with a parent was heart breaking. Most hope for love, respect, consideration, absent of abuse and exploitation.
I appreciate that the idea of NC sounds extreme to many, but for number of individuals it is the only option that we have for self preservation; not just a reaction to a disagreement, unless one considers the disagreement being about the compliance of the abused child to his treatment. Most people sharing on the subject struggle to go NC. It is hard to acknowledge that you were abused and to let go of the promise of love that comes with family.
I acknowledge mine is dysfunctional and the underlying tone is a lot of pain. So, No Contact it is.
One does not need to exhibit a personality disorder to have undermined the quality of connection with someone close.
So, for people who experience NC from a loved one and if you are not abusive, maybe identify where the connection was damaged and nurture the aspects of the relationship that promote connection; maybe be see a counsellor?I am sharing ideas that I imagine would show my parent cares and wants to invest in a healthier quality of relation, something I long for and definitely don't want to runaway from...
I understand it's just one point of view, but maybe it can make a positive difference to some of the readers.
Hi Titi thanks for sharing your story. When a child has suffered at the hands of a parent the way you have then of course, non contact is the best, and possibly only way forward.
I do disagree though that there is an assumption in this thread that many parents had good relationships with their children prior to being cut out.
Those of us who are estranged from our AC and in many cases as a result, our GC too, know how things used to be which is why it's so distressing. The shock of suddenly being rejected by the child you once were so close too, and had such a positive relationship with, cannot be truly epressed.
'I am sharing ideas that I imagine would show my parent cares and wants to invest in a healthier quality of relation, something I long for and definitely don't want to runaway from... '
The problem is that some parents are convinced they have done absolutely nothing wrong so won't entertain the idea that just maybe they are to blame or even may of contributed.
There are 2 sides to every story. Well 3 as the saying goes theirs, yours and the truth my MILs side does not match my husband's.
My MILs side is short, it's my fault.
I could write pages on his side and what he's been through.
Her inability to listen is what made my husband stop trying to sort things out. Her 'silly little argument'.. wasn't, it was a big deal for him and us but minimised by her.
Nothing was really done face to face with her and was mainly over text or email all because he was scared of her reaction. A grown man of 30 scared of his mother.
When the 'silly little argument' side was told to FIL he text my husband and told him that he had really upset his mum, broke her heart and was absolutely devastated.
When my husband told his side FIL he texted back 'She didn't tell me that'.
'That' being that I was in labour and we had to cancel the visit and no, he couldn't make any time for her at that time as I was in labour.
Communication is vital as is listening. My MIL blames me so my husband's words fall on deaf ears as nothing could be solved because I'm the problem.
Thank you all so much for this thread. I've not read it all, there are so many posts, but it has given me the reason why my daughter has cut me off and will not tell me why. She has 1 child who will be 4 in February and I haven't seen him since he was 18 months old.
A little background. I left her abusive father after he kicked her in the stomach, he had abused me but up until this incident had never touched her. We have had no contact with him since she was 21 months. I met my husband just before I left her father but there was no crossover in relationships. We have 3 children together and brought my daughter up the same as the other 3 children. She was always aware that her real father existed and chose not to find him as an adult. She also chose not to tell friends and her siblings that she had a different father. She has used this against me saying I was her dirty little secret and I was ashamed of her and that's why no one knew she had a different father, not because we gave her that option and she chose to keep it to herself. Growing up she had everything she needed and wanted, to the point that she was spoiled, all my children were as I had a dreadful childhood and did everything to make sure mine had what I didn't. The very fact that no one knew she was from a different father goes to show she was not treated differently and she herself has said she wasn't. However she has chosen to cut me out of her life, she has gradually cut of the rest of the family too. In fact the only person who she hasn't blocked on all social media is her stepfather, my husband.
So I have been left wondering what I did so wrong. Until reading this thread and googling NO CONTACT. The articles I found could have been written by my daughter, right down to the use of the term, Golden child, which is what she calls her sister, and the fact she has never given me a reason even though I have asked time and time again. She contacted me last Christmas because I asked my husband to contact her and ask for her new address so i could send her and my grandson a gift. She replied by saying she doesn't want any more presents from me because it was difficult to explain to her son who they were from. But said it would be nice for him to have contact with his grandparents. I was a bit baffled, she had turned it around as though it were me who had cut her off.So we set up a time when she would unblock me from social media and we could have a chat. As the time got closer I became more and more nervous and that's when I realised my health issues, that I have been suffering from, were caused by what she has done. I have IBS and anxiety, only surfacing after all the problems between her and the rest of the family. We spoke, well she spoke, on Whatsapp, to dictate terms on how I must behave if I were to have contact with my grandson. I felt like a criminal, having visiting term in a contact centre. I had to be there at a specified time and where she said. At this point I realised it was not going to work unless we talked about the reason for the estrangement in the first place. She refused to discuss it and ended all contact again. She has in the past said that she "is the original and the best" and that "the worse thing I ever did was to have more children after her." She also told my son, her brother, that her partner's family were more closely related to her son than he was because he is only her half brother, what a nasty thing to say to a then, 13 year old child when he was visiting his first nephew for the first time.
I am now, sad to say, content with the arrangement. I have accepted that this is better for me as I can not cope with the stress she has caused and to have her back in my life just would not work. There has been too much damage done and there is no way to mend it.
My other 2 daughters say I am their best friend and can't understand what she has a problem with, I was even at the birth of me second daughters child, such a privilege to have that bond with my second grandson. My son, is devoted to me and really dislikes his elder sister, he's very defensive of me and hates what he's seen me go through. But If I were to point this out to my daughter she would say that's because I have brain washed them. So I can't win. It's a sad day when total strangers can turn family against each other.
A relative newcomer to gransnet.... I am saddened by the stories of difficulties with ACs and their parents.
I have experienced disappointments and hurt with my son. I am working through it and doing the best I can.
I think it probably takes compromise and understanding on both sides.
We are all human. We don’t always get it right.
Our children may not like us and we may not like them!
All our situations are different. There is no one answer.
But having the support on thidps board is wonderful.
Agnurse - you sometimes have some good points ... but people who are hurting need comfort and not lectures and bitter pills to swallow!
I have to say that reading the experiences of others has helped me look at my situation differently. I am going to act differently in the New Year. Start spending the sons inheritance as fast as I can! Lol!
There are indeed two sides to every story. Most people do the best they can bringing up their children. Always exceptions though, we know that by the cases we read in the news of abuse and neglect that often result in a child dying. These are extreme cases and rightly shocks everyone. However, on here the majority of estranged parents have put their children first, a wrong one off comment can result in no contact, a cowardly and cruel act, why not just say what's the problem is. One thing they don't need are judgemental posters accusing them of years of torment and abuse, if that were the case they wouldn't be on here they would have the skin of a rhino and not care. There are lots of dil's who are fabulous, like mine, but I have also known Dil from hell, by their control of their partner destroying that mother son bond. Also mil who are set on making Dil undermined. Daughters who have to be right regardless if they are or not.
There are two posters on this forum who know everything, despite not being in that situation. The sons and daughters of such people must grit their teeth with parents that know the answer to every situation, have an opinion of absolutely everything, regardless of no experience of their subjects.
To those of you estranged, I know the heartache you feel, I hope you can enjoy this Christmas with people that truly care for you. I feel for those alone, whose relationship has broken down with their close families and hope that there can be a reunion because miracles happen every day.
Know I've gone on but I feel for people that come on here for support because they don't need lecturing on how bad they are by those with no knowledge or understanding of the pain they are experiencing. With space can come understanding, I believe in getting on with your life after you have given your best at sorting things out. They know they can contact you at anytime when they want to. 💐
I’m sorry your daughter wasn’t brought up the same because if I understand correctly your other 3 children are from your second marriage.
These 3 children didn’t have a father who abused their mother and then kicked them in the stomach.
This isn’t an excuse for her behaviour but she needs to learn that this isn’t an excuse, she does need to seek help to deal with her past. However I do recommend that you look at the evidence of how children are affected by domestic violence, especially in the first few years of life and how this can cause attachment problems.
Also of how she feels knowing that her father was a violent child abusing thug and her jealousy knowing her brothers and sisters have a Dad they can be proud off. It might be an idea if her brothers and sisters are reminded of this too.
It is that time of the year families get together. If you are reading and contributing to this thread, I imagine that your experience may not be that picture of a happy family gathering for Christmas.
I shared my story a few days ago and appreciate some of the feedbacks. Telling one’s story and being acknowledged helps very much. Thank you to those who shared their understanding of mine. My account along with others shared on this thread tell me that so many of us have different stories, but one common experience seems to come up: The hurt, anger, sadness of being cutoff from loving reciprocal relationships.
My heart goes to those who share the experience of being alienated by your dear ones. It sucks!
My experience motivated me to look for what promotes connection and restores healthy relationships. I got to acknowledge a few things I did or accepted that had an adverse effect on experiencing healthy relationships with self and others. This has been quite humbling. Maybe you got something else out of your experience, maybe you will, maybe not. Regardless, I wish you to find solace and peace.
All the best!
Luckylegs Nice post! It upsets me too when people looking for support get endlessly told why it is all their fault etc etc! Every story is different. Someone may well feel they have done nothing to cause the situation and they may well be right! Even if they are wrong then unkind, rude, nasty posts will most definitely not help them to re-evaluate their situation. I have no idea why a few posters think that endlessly "telling it how it is"(THEIR version of how it is!!) is going to help, but then I am not sure that helping is what a few posters are aiming for!
I am not estranged but fear it greatly for a number of reasons ...and this time of year is hard I think for everyone in this situation or fearing it!
You are right , miracles can happen!
I realize that many of you feel that you are saddened by not having your grandchildren in your life.
I just happened upon this thread searching for a little positivity in dealing with my heartache and sadness from losing my mother and read your post. I have to say, it did very little to help my heart but I would like to add my thoughts and feelings on this topic.
I can't speak for 'everyone' that is in this unfortunate circumstance.
I think what you all are missing is that there are different levels of narcissists and different types. In truth, we all have some narcissism as a means to survive. However, the type of narcissistic disorder that is toxic and dangerous. The narcissistic portion of this disorder is only but an appendage of another disorder - sometimes a cluster of them. This is not 'typical' narcissism - this is destructive and dangerous.
My mother was abused by her mother when she was younger - that is undisputed. This abuse caused my mother to develop some serious mental illnesses within the 'cluster B' category - which includes malignant narcissism (which is almost always a component).
Enter in 'me' - the child that loved her mother more than anything in this world. Through unspeakable abuse and narcissistic rages, extreme sadism, physical and mental abuse. Yet I loved my mother and continued trying to heal her with love because I believed in this with all my heart. Love can heal all.
My mother destroyed several people in all these years - my father ended up giving up on life - and walking in front of a Mac truck (all because he missed me in his life and my mother destroyed him). My sister has been in one abusive relationship after another and so filled with anger over her childhood that she is rendered non-functioning a lot of the time (she has children herself that have been through much). My stepfather preferred dying alone in the hospital instead of having the one woman he loved with him as it was too painful to have my mother with him in his last moments.
My mother destroys people and almost destroyed me. This is what 'toxic narcissism' does to families and those that love them.
It took me a lifetime to realize that my mother was incapable of loving. Not until she lost everything and I had her come stay with us so she would have a roof over her head, food to eat and love. She couldn't handle seeing the love in our house or my attention to my children. She was very jealous of them and targeted my youngest son saying the most cruel things to him if he was ever alone with her.
When we realized how damaging my mother was to our family, we started the process of finding her an apartment of her own only to be bombarded with phone calls from managers that my mother was telling people we were abusing her so that she could get her apartment sooner and have a two bedroom instead of one bedroom. She alienated me and my family from everyone - afraid that her mask was slipping - that I would tell someone in the family about her rages and hatefulness, cruelty to her grandchildren.
A mother that 'loves' does not do this to their child or anyone. But this is a small glimpse of what a true toxic and malignant narcissist does. They do not feel like other people, in fact, they lack empathy. They are dangerous which is why the psychology field promotes 'no contact' for the victims. Unlike alcoholism or other mental illnesses, there is no known cure or therapy for them. To undo the identity they have created for themselves would be death to them - therefore they would never admit nor get help (which is a large part of why therapy is effective). Since they are incapable of feeling love for others, this is not something that is an incentive for them.
I didn't initiate no contact with my mother. I wanted 5 minutes of her time on Sundays to heal and that is when she cut me out of her life - because that would be death to her.
When people talk about narcissists and no contact on the internet - this is the type of personality disorder they are referring to - not your normal kind of narcissism. This is a very real and dangerous mental illness.
Trust me when I say that I wish every day that I had my mother and that my children had a grandmother that loved them. Some people are just not capable of loving - therefore love is not able to heal. Unfortunately.
Much love to you all - I hope that're able to reunite with your families.
"Whacked their fresh asses"... "self-esteem movement" (as though it is a BAD thing to care about your self?)... and "you're such a lemming". I can see why NC is a matter you are faced with.
@Loveheals-I hear you and can relate
These kind testimonies found on support forums helped a lot, realising that the relationship with my mother was unloving and abusive and others experienced the same
Uttering this was often received with pushback and backlash.
Thank you for sharing. I am grateful for this. Hearing my experience shared by others somehow validated it and was my first step to recovery. It matters.
Sending you warmth and wishing you all the best.
I went No Contact with my mother shortly before she died. Best thing I ever did. Her controlling, judgmental and manipulative behavior was the reason.
I haven’t seen too many here acknowledge THEIR behavior. Things like not treating your Children like adults, dropping in without calling first - sometimes while sick, baby or child hogging, not vaccinating yourself, criticizing constantly. In short Mom/Grans massive senses of entitlement will bring on No Contact.
There’s no reasoning with someone who refuses to examine their own behavior and change it. My mother’s “because I’m the mom/gran” was her excuse for stomping any boundaries I tried to set. She was ALWAYS right and would play martyr if anyone tried to talk to her
I had to cut off siblings and my beloved father as my Mother would use them to get at me. I refused to rug sweep too
In short sweep your own house before you call us a cult. It’s not easy. It’s usually last resort and not for petty reasons.
Love heals, just read your post, it is clear how hard you tried. I am glad you have a loving family of your own that it didn't make you bitter just more determined to give them the love and stability you never had.
Can't say I agree with mumoftwins take on things though. Things are not always do black and white.
One thing’s for sure, it took a lot of soul searching, trying to get thru to my mother and years of therapy before I went No Contact
It’s not a cult. No one brainwashed me and I followed no script. AFTER I went No Contact I found out my mother HAD been diagnosed as Narcissistic. It didn’t surprise me as she couldn’t self reflect and only stayed in therapy long enough to hammer the therapist about her entitlement to do and the therapist to make many failed attempts at explaining empathy to her (as I learned later)
I’d put up with years of twisted lies to or about me, attempts to control my life, attempts to marry me off, and some very bizarre behaviors.
My own Grandmother told me she had to cut off members of her own family over the years for similar behavior
Granted sometimes it’s the children but just being Gran or Mom isn’t a rubber stamp to do whatever you please. Respect is a two way street.
I agree MumOfTwins "just being Gran or Mom isn't a rubber stamp to do whatever you please" and being an adult child doesn't carry that rubber stamp either.
Mumoftwins. One sentence says all there is to say about your attitude. The one ending in "you refused to rug sweep" what a term. Your family are still all together, it's you that isn't. They are all wrong and just you are right. One day your twins will be adult and let's hope they take after you, I wonder how you will feel then.
Refusing to rugsweep simply means she isn't willing to play happy families when she knows there's a problem.
Did you not read the part where her mum is diagnosed as being narcissistic? I'm not surprised she is NC with her mum.
As for the rest of them, unfortunately there are people who think "family is everything", and there are also people who don't or can't recognize that relatives are toxic. To admit that a parent is toxic is to admit that one's childhood was never really safe. That's admitting that one of your most fundamental needs wasn't met. That's a major challenge to a person's mental health.
As an example, BIL thinks FIL is wonderful. Hardly surprising, given that BIL was the favourite son. His wife can't stand FIL. Hubby can't stand FIL. Neither can I. Are you seeing a pattern here?
My twins are adults. I respect them. They’ve seen for themselves what’s going on in the family. They made independent decisions to be No Contact with certain family members
I’m not going to rugsweep and excuse abusive behavior from anyone. Family or not. I’m not holding grudges. In fact I feel nothing towards those family members
I listen to my kids when they set boundaries and respect them. I’m not all right. I’m just me. And I don’t like being abused or shamed or controlled. It was my family who behaved in “agree with us 100% or else manners.” They tried to do it to my children and my kids cut them off ON THEIR OWN.
You’re making some sweeping assumptions here. Which tells me a lot about you.
Thank you agnurse. Yes my childhood wasn’t safe. Or Happy. I tried but toxic is just that. Toxic.
I hope my kids continue to take after THEMSELVES. They’re wonderful people.
Agnes's and mumoftwins, if that's your take on life, fine. Just not mine.
Just to clarify........when you say "diagnosed as being narcissistic ", are you say narcissism is a medical condition. Never heard such a thing.....this must be something stateside.
Here, I doubt any doctor uses the term "narcissistic " as a diagnosis. Maybe a psychiatrist would. I don't know.
I totally agree. I never implied that it did
The diagnosis came from a psychiatrist. Narcissistic Personality Disorder with comorbid Histrionic Personality Disorder
These are outlined in the DSM V as Cluster B, Axis II Personality Disorders
That’s my therapists and my take on my situation. I wouldn’t suppose to judge life for anyone else
What she's referring to is a personality disorder. There are 3 main clusters: odd/eccentric (paranoid, schizoid, and schizotypical personalities), dramatic/emotional (borderline, narcissistic, histrionic, and antisocial personalities), and fearful/anxious (dependent, avoidant, and obsessive/compulsive personalities - the last is separate and distinct from OCD). It's not surprising that Mumoftwins's mum was diagnosed with features of histrionic PD as well; there tends to be a lot of overlap between these disorders, especially in the cluster B (dramatic/emotional) category.
MofT....The fact that you can quote your mothers 'diagnosis' strikes me as very spurious.
For one, talk to any psychiatrist and its very difficult to diagnose.
Then there's the more important imv, 'fact' that a psychiatrist or therapist would have had to BREAK their professional code of conduct to discuss a patient with another?
How on earth did you come by such private information?
If it was through supposition or tittle tattle from a 3rd party, how can it be considered reliable?
This alone makes me disbelieve the validity of your post.
Which leads me to think you are making reasons for your behaviour of NC. Reasons that suit your agenda. Such as 'child hogging'!!?
You may well have good reason to drop contact with her for all I know, but what you have said here does not qualify as such.
Having a difficult parent myself I speak with some understanding of gaslighting, triangulation and just plain cruelty.
By difficult I mean horrendously callous.
Never the less, I still find the original op's post for the most part true.
It's all too easy to fall in line with a fashionable idea, and to hand over all our responsibility's for our behaviour, and justifying them with a 'label' to show the world, and where does that lead?
Loveheals.....What you have described in your post is very similar to my experience.
Your eloquence and empathy shine out, and I'd like to Thank you for bothering to share your situation.
In its own way it has added more insight to the thread than any of the other finger wagging self proclaimed 'experts' will ever do!
Considering the tone of your rhetoric I’m not surprised you find mine spurious. I found out because it was in paperwork in her home found when she passed away.
Have you ever read any groups where posters agonize over No Contact like reddit’s ‘JustNoMIL’?
Shared DNA doesn’t give anyone the right to behave badly. Children grow up and become adults. Respect is a two way street
Frankly I found the OPs comments about No Contact being a cult or people following scripts to be ridiculous. I’ve spoken to a number of ACs who agonize for years, try having conversations with their parents and even go to counseling together. The pain both sides go thru is horrible. It’s not a light decision
But to dismiss it out of hand because YOU are the parent and should be given carte Blanche? I will never agree. Say what you like about me. I stick by my choices
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates
MumofT you perhaps should have had in your mind the quote of Socrates when you made your first post on this thread on 30.12. @ 7.39.
Your second paragraph which began with "I haven't seen to many here acknowledge THEIR behaviour" IMO was dismissing out of hand the posts from estranged parents who have seen their once close and loving relationships with their AC destroyed.
Perhaps losing the debate when you'd only just entered into it.
The OP has spent years researching this subject and has had her research published on more than one occasion. My experience and the experience of others on this thread is not the same as yours but that doesn't make those experiences any less valuable, and as many experiences shared here are in line with the OP, that in itself should be sufficient to validate the OP's comments.
All of us I'm sure agree that "shared DNA doesn't give anyone the right to behave badly" whether it's the parent or the AC whose doing so.
Some AC have no choice but to go no contact due to abusive parenting, others do so because they allow themselves to be influenced by their partners and/or other family members.
The subject of this thread is the brainwashing behind going non contact. It exists. It's not always the case but the fact that it does happen should not be dismissed out of hand.
I can see why some of your ACs went NC. The weaponizing of personal thoughts, the inability for self reflection and sanctimony is unreal
May the New Year bring you all you deserve
A very cruel and un necessary post MumofT. You have merely summed up yourself with your post which I'm pleased to see will be your last.
Perhaps you've given more insight into your own situation than you intended.
You soon get the measure of an attitude or trait on here, when alternative views are expressed.
I cannot understand why AC go NC from parents who clearly show care and understanding in everything they post. It justs comes naturally to them.
I guess that is why NC hurts so much. If we were so thoughtless and selfish as is sometimes implied, surely we wouldn't give a damn.
Thank you for giving me a chuckle this last day of 2018. I learned a lot but nothing about myself I wasn’t already aware of.
Nice try though
Smileless please ignore MumOfT in much the same way that I now ignore agnurse. What they have to say is of no consequence.
MofT...Well you haven't stood by your choices have you? No contact changed to plenty of contact (at least with her belongings}! When it suited. Then you had the gall to read her private papers.
In comparison, my choice will be to hire a house clearance firm to deal with my parents estate should I end up the one to handle everything.
Specifically so as I don't find any unsettling diaries or papers. My parents wont be able to answer for themselves, so what I cant sort out in life, I've made a decision to let go of in death. Don't want to fester for ever.
BTW never heard of any self respecting therapist who would actually call a client a narcissist outright. Knowing as they should, how devastating this would be to hear/read.
I think what appears so offensive to many on this site is the evangelical way you seem to have for spreading your POV.
And I wonder why would you cast your pearls among swine?
Ah! I see you've decided to leave........graciously!
Agnurse...The truth of MofT's mothers diagnosis cannot be verified. So its pointless hammering on about it.
1. MofT's mother was dead when MofT read her papers. Maybe MofT couldn't afford to pay someone to go through her mother's belongings. Maybe there was no one else to do it. Maybe it was healing for her to do it. You can't cast aspersions on her reasons for going through her parents' things. If there was something her mother didn't want anyone to read, she could have destroyed it before her death.
2. Narcissistic personality disorder is a genuine medical condition. It's not a slur used in that sense. People are diagnosed with PD's all the time and are made aware of their diagnosis. It would be no different than telling someone they had depression or bipolar. Why would the therapist not tell her patient that the patient has a medical condition? You can look up narcissistic PD in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It's listed in there.
Thank you so much agnurse. My father begged my sibling as myself to go thru her things. We did. It was very healing.
You tried agnurse. And I appreciate it. There’s no rational conversation with some. Especially those who find personal attacks and arrogant ignorance preferable to self examination.
Have a happy and safe New Years. Best to you.
Smileless...As you have pointed out the thread is about the 'brainwashing' behind going no contact, and as you said it does exist. You also went to great pains to point out that this is not the case for everyone, but this is a discussion about those that it does.
Pity people cant read everything with a clear head instead of picking out bits that serve their purpose. But pay them no heed.
Happy New Year to you and your lovely H.
DontAskMe...Good advice Happy New Year to you too
Thank you Namsnanny* and a Happy New Year to you.
Oh dear, another one! Ignore.
To everyone that come on here offering support in a very difficult situation, which helps do many. Happy New Year🎉
Two words I absolutely loathe at the moment, because they are bandied around freely, and with no apparently knowledge of what the words actually mean.
Hmm not sure about 'snowflake' HurdyGurdy but do know what narcissist means and is. I agree that that particular word I often miss used and used too often.
agnurse, While I agree NPD is a genuine medical condition way too many are chair psychologist attempt to diagnose another using information from on line. They are not trained and thus it is nothing more than their opinion not a fact. While I would agree there are some who if having went through getting proper professional help are advised to use NC that is one thing but for those who sit behind a computer screen and suggest this is the best way to deal with a situation it is not. It not only places that generation for the ones to follow on a very destructive path. It can and does cause major damage to family relationships. It is also interesting as I read through post here and other places that it is noted by some who say they have attempted to talk to other but the other party just will not listen. Thus there is no reason to continue with the relationship. As a third party looking at that I see that person doing the same that they are accusing the other party of doing. Just because one party does not agree with them based upon their statement does not mean they are not listening. To me it would mean that maybe they need to make a different argument as to why. I can listen and if the facts presented make sense then I should be willing to change my view. However, if the facts do not support changing my view then I have still listened but the argument was not sufficient to justify changing my stance.
I hate to say this but I think all to often we jump on a band wagon because it is easier to do so than working to actually solve the issue at hand. Also I would say that there are always three sides to every story, person 1's side, person 2's side and the actual facts. Many on both sides of this issue have been hurt in one way or another.
A saying with I grew up was "sticks and stones my hurt my bones but words will never harm me." It pretty much laid out a philosophy which my generation grew up with and served us well. However, today I look around and every where I look people are saying they are offended but what another has said. Really are they so immature that a simple word is so devastating to them. Have we created a society that is that weak? Sure words can cut someone to the bone but why not get to the reason why it was done and solve the underlying issue not run from it. Another saying of my time was "what does not kill us only serves to make us stronger." I think many today fail at this because it is much easier to run and hide our head in the sand than not to as we might learn something about ourselves.
For a few people it's easier to sever contact and move on than working at a relationship. So many elderly people are facing a lonely old age because they are seen as a burden, a wrong word and your out. Loads of lovely families out there all supporting each other in different ways, I know many and it's great to see, but for some people completely on their own especially if they have lost a pattner, then you are seen as more of a burden.
@ Luckylegs9 I guess I can understand that, for us our ED pulled back shortly after her mother spent 6 weeks in the hospital and she has multiple health issues. She was later hospitalized again and the ED even though she knew about her mothers surgery along with all the grandchildren has not to this day bothered to call and check to see how she is doing. Last Thursday my wife again had another surgery but this time we didn't even bother to let them know. Really can't see a reason to keep them in the loop anymore. It is really sad since we more or less raised them for years as the ED was a single Mother after she divorced their father. one is 21 another just turned 18, we sent him a birthday card and gift even though we hadn't heard from him and didn't even get a call or a text thanking us. We know he received it as he made sure to cash our check.
First time on here and not too sure if this is the right forum so please feel free to correct me.
I have two gorgeous granchildren (1 girl aged 9 1 boy aged 7) My son and his wife split up a number of years ago due to her manipulation and controlling behaviour to him. He really did try above and beyond to keep the family unit together but in truth he was pushed so close to the edge it was scary to watch. At first when his wife said she would change and get help for her behavioural problems she allowed us to see the children and my son backed her completley. That was a number of years ago and as soon as she realised he would support her but would not go back to the marriage life has been a nightmare to see the children for us both. My Son is a police officer and travels almost 200 miles (one way) to see his children when agreed only to be told the morning hes due to have them by text that they do not want to come and she will not force them. The odd times we have had them they have absolutley loved it. My grandson we saw a little more as he is on the autistic spectrum and so it would be quite hard to alienate him. but in the last 6 months even that has stopped. He is not even allowed to talk to the children on the phone. It is going to court but by her delaying tactics and also saying to a solicitor that abuse took place (which it did not) she has been granted legal aid and is basically making it hard financially for my son to keep affording the services of a solicitor and so in essence just wasting money. He has given her their home and pays regular maintance. The latest is she is posting on FB pictures of herself in a Love shouldnt Hurt T shirt with my grandaughter. This surely is wrong as she is allowing her to believe that my son abused her in some way. I have no idea where to turn as I do not have pots and pots of money and she just keeps delaying the court case so that she can manipulate the children more. I have tried contacting her and all the other things they recommend but she either replies and says not this week and then I get nothing more or doesnt even bother to respond.
Monique, I too am new here so I may not be the best to respond but saying that I can also share your heartache as I know for both my wife and myself our grandchildren are very precious to us and we love them all so very much. I can also understand how difficult it is for you to be on the side lines and have to watch all this take place and how it tears your heart out. I wish I had the words to give you to make it all right and take the hurt away but I do not. I am not an expert in the area but from what you have shared it would seem that she be it unintentionally or intentionally is using both the fathers love and your love for the children as a manipulating factor but keeping your hope up to see the children only to crush them by then pulling back and not allowing such. Again I am not an expert but it would seem to me she knows of your love and desire to see and be with the children and thus using that to you and your son to hurt. I know how difficult it is to not count on or look forward to the possibility of getting to see them but I would caution you and him not to do this and thus limit her ability to rip your heart out yet again by her manipulation. Rather prepare for the worse and cherish any time you in fact are able to be with them. Carry those fond memories in your heart and hold onto them. I hope it will not be long till the court is able to hear the case and it is my wish for you that not only will they provide time for the father but also the grand parents as well.
Seeing the vibe here, and the people hurt, I'm interested in what you'd think from the EC's perspective. I told my mother I needed some time apart after she accused me of something I didn't do and attempted to emotionally manipulate my children to take her side. Of course, she didn't think the accusation was a big deal and didn't see what she did as "emotional manipulation."
We'd worked on a business together for several years (I'd increased profits by 18-19K/year) but all my assets were in her name. She confiscated all but a pittance and left me to try and care for my wife and children without even enough money to get a car. Meanwhile she's pulling in 70K a year. I had to get government aid. I couldn't get another job at first because no car. I was barely able to put food on the table because she took everything. She demanded to see her grandchildren while doing everything she could to drive me to despair and be her servant again.
From her perspective, she was entitled to all that money. She forgot, or in her opinion, never made the agreement to share the profits of the business I helped create- she was paying me for services temporarily. My financials problems were my own and I needed to be "nice" to her if I expected anything from her.
Well, I scraped and scraped and worked and worked and pulled myself up by my bootstraps and I'm now doing okay with my own little business and other employment. I'll never forget how she took advantage of my trust- I put all the assets in her name because I had some credit problems. She was a worse problem than debt collectors.
But why would I ever want to contact her again? She destroyed any trust between us, and in taking those profits for the past several years, I consider myself to have retroactively paid her for all the food I ate as a child.
Further, talking is pointless. She will never change. As she says "she just is who she is." Alternatively, I'm constantly trying to better myself. I take constructive criticism seriously- I know I'm a being with faults too, but she takes no responsibility for her faults. The complete lack of hope for her to change is the biggest reason I gave up. It wasn't like the accusation and manipulation was a one-off event, it was the straw that broke the camels back after 30 years of trust-issues, emotional manipulation, and NPD behavior.
I've seen people talking about "spending the inheritance" - well, she made the same threats. As the bible says "Like clouds and wind without rain is one who boasts of gifts never given." Proverbs 24:15
For thirty years she told me about things she do for me that she never did. She would've spent the supposed inheritance anyway, and just used some other excuse. The reason we go NC is that we finally stop believing you. Saying you love a person doesn't make it true, actions speak louder than words. I've seen people saying it's ridiculous that the EC expect then to be put ahead of their parents...
I always put my kid's interests ahead of mine and I always will. I may have to balance my resources between them, sure, but I want them to be smarter, richer, and happier than I am. If going NC with me makes them happier someday, I'm okay with that- if you love something, set it free. My children don't owe me for rearing them, I did that for the joy in itself, the joy of giving that I learned from God. If we don't get along as adults, so be it.
Also, it hurts me most days I'm NC with my mother. The memories hurt, and I miss the few good times with her. But, as much as being NC hurts, the pain of having contact is 1000x worse. The hurtful things she says, the drama, the horrible examples for my children. I ended up in therapy for years because of the way she treated me. I'm finally able to function and work again after she left me destitute. I'm not NC to hurt her, I'm NC to protect myself. I wish I could erase myself from her memory- I think, deep down, she'd have been happier never having me. She always made me feel like that growing up until I was useful to her.
Anyways, alternative perspective, because I see a lot of my mom in a lot of these posts.
Rational what a sad woman your mum is. Your post suggests that the love of money supersedes anything or anyone else. Very sad for her, for you and for your children.
Of course you should no longer have been available for her emotional abuse and manipulation, once you were able too, it's right that you took the decision to walk away and protect your children. Yours was not a decision taken to inflict pain and suffering, just because you could it was due to the total break down of your relationship with your mother and the destruction of trust, which is so important in any relationship.
The reason you went NC is because you finally stopped believing your mother because as you say, "saying you love a person doesn't make it true, actions speak louder than words". That however is not the reason all AC choose to go NC.
There are many heartbroken parents whose actions spoke just as loudly as their words. Who did the best that they could do for a child who now no longer wants anything to do with them. Parents who will only ever be grand parents in name, because they're not allowed to see their GC. Not because they need to be protected but just because the AC can take them away.
You say about your own children that "if going NC with (you) makes them happier some day, (you're) OK with that - if you love something set it free".
I hope you'll never know the pain of your own child refusing any and all communication. I hope you'll never hear the lies that are told to try and justify the unjustifiable because if you love your children and are a decent, kind and supportive parent, there is no justification.
Maybe if you do experience all of the aforementioned you maybe OK with that, but somehow I doubt it. You say that being NC with your mother hurts you most days. Despite all that you've been through, there is pain due to your separation from your own mother.
Imagine then, if you can, the pain of being separated from your own child, never to see them again and never to know their children, your GC because you "don't get along as adults". If you don't get along with your parents you can spend as little time with them as you wish, but if they were never a threat to you as a child, why keep your children away from them. No contact; by letter, email, text, face time, birthday and Christmas cards. Nothing at all, as if they don't and never have existed.
Your aspirations for your children are the ones we had for ours. We've been estranged for more than 6 years from the youngest and are currently in Aus. where our eldest now lives.
Two sons raised the same in every way. A great relationship with one and absolutely no relationship with the other.
We need to protect ourselves, just as you do. Our ES said he and his wife needed some time apart from us, then emotionally tried to manipulate our other son to take their side.
A mirror image of your own experience or, as you say an alternative perspective. Your pain and ours though is the same; as devastating, damaging and life changing.
I'm sorry for your pain. I'm sorry that your mum has eventually made it impossible for the son she should be so proud of to have a relationship her.
Do not get me wrong, I am sure there are some EC's who have suffered both emotional, mental and even physical abuse and in those cases there is a real reason to going NC. But I will tell you that and I will use your own words that you always put your children ahead of yourself that was me. While my daughter lived at home and even after she moved out, I was always there providing a safety net, including money, housing etc. Do keep in mind she moved out at 18 and I continued this through even now that she has went NC I am still paying for some of her bills and she is now 40. I helped after her first divorce to make sure the grandkids had food on the table, gave her money to fight the child custody issues with her ex, was there anytime she needed us to help out with the kids. Even though during her life she had done things which hurt and cut deeply into her mother and I we stood by her. Now because she claims her mother said something which hurt her feelings we are toxic... and there for NC and taking the grandkids with her. I know from watching her with her first ex she was one to constantly bad mouth her ex in front of the kids so I have no doubt that she has done the same. But if asked to talk about it to try and work past it or understand things she will not do that. Now if she would at least talk that might be a start but she will not.
Each relationship is different but if the people in a relationship will not communicate it can not work. We have even attempted counseling with her and she went but would not take part. How can to help when someone doesn't even want to try to work through things. The worst part about it is that the true victims out of all of it are the grandchildren.
I didn't find out about this being a trend until recently- this script IS offputting... Definitely should avoid throwing a diagnosis at people, and making everyone feel like they should abandon their family if things don't go their way.
Sometimes though, it's for the best. After a heartbreaking tragedy in my family (husband and kids) and snowballing hatred from my immediate family towards us... after "the main event", I had to do it. It really just seemed to come out of nowhere... and their rage is best described as "Silent but then deadly" and the situation "bizarre"
People can think it's terrible all you want, sometimes it is. You can think young kids just lack respect, but sometimes this happens because the parent that got "cut off", is the one lacks the traditional family values. Just to the extreme.
If most family-value-respecting people were present for the "final straw", you would see why I made my choice. I know the neighbors certainly did, couldn't miss em!
But I get it, the point is it being a trend done on a selfish whim. That's not a good idea. Nor is throwing around a diagnosis. However, any commenter that thinks its evil of anybody to do, should rethink.
Sometimes it's for the best.
I do feel sad and wish it never happened, but at the same time confused and hurt. Letting it sink in that even if I want it, I wont have a good immediate family.
And hahaha I didn't cut off the "flying monkeys"!! I still call and write them. They didn't offend me so why cut them off? What do I care if they gossip or fill this family in? At least I feel better knowing life events will get back to them without me having to put myself in the line of fire.
What a load of narcissistic bs! If your child has gone non contact with you, why don't you, for once in your life, take a hard look at YOURSELF. Rest assured, children with normal, non abusive parents, do not go no contact. It's a huge, very difficult step of self preservation that a child makes, never lightly. Once again, as you've mostly likely done all your life if your own child has gone no contact, you feel entitled to their energy, with no accountability what so ever if the abuse you've inflicted.
And no, exposure to toxic people, even in small doses, is not healthy. Narcissists do not love their children, that is what we've learned. We are done being used as a supply by the time we go no contact. We've got your number. This whole post is "gaslighting" and "devaluation". If it sounds like we are reading from the same script, it's because the behavior of the narcissist parent has been studied, and is very predictable. Reconciliation is NOT recommended by mental health professionals, and it will not benefit the victim... No matter how much you try to twist your reality.
No abuser thinks they're abusive. I promise you there's no way a child is going no contact with you unless you're abusive. You don't get to decide whether or not you've hurt someone. You can only honor their HEALTHY BOUNDARIES, I know that's a foreign concept to you, boundaries... As they've never applied to you, but learn to let go and let your child heal on their own. You do not control them.
Oh, and go get tested for NPD.
Oh please! We have a poor me adult child here. What don’t you get about diagnosing all these parents (mostly mothers) as narcissists? It’s a get out clause for all the selfish, spoilt and, no doubt, over indulged, overgrown brats to wash their hands of their parents when they’ve outlived their usefulness. The only thing is we never outlive our usefulness, especially when money is required or childminding. I’m sorry but i’m so angry at the last post. Stop blaming your parents for everything and don’t expect anything in the way of inheritance. It cuts both ways and I’ve seen first hand this spiteful behaviour towards a dear friend and the distress it’s caused and the son doing it is piece of work. He’s just had a tantrum as she’s finally made a will and he’s not in it. He hasn’t sent a burthday card, mother’s day card or had Christmas lunch with his mum even though she had had a knee operation and yet she’s done everything for him. It’s the offspring that behave like this that are the narcissists. She’s well shot of him and if one of mine ever follows this rubbish blindly I’ll respond in kind.
I was a little surprised to see this thread back up here. But I guess I shouldn't be because it covers a very timely and important topic.
But there it is... right in the two posts above mine... each side calling the other "narcissists"... each side saying they're the "" (my word) and need to protect/defend themselves. I suppose it could be either way, depending on the people and the circumstances.
Well I thought tickingbird's post was very good Starlady. Yes, she responded angrily by her own admission because she sees her friend suffering.
Your post Jmoen was extremely aggressive and judge mental. If you'd taken the time to read this thread in its entirety, you'd have seen the understanding and sympathetic responses from parents and GP's who've been cut out of their AC's lives, toward AC who for understandable reasons, have chosen to go no contact with their parents.
We do not tar all estranging AC with the same brush and you'd do better to reciprocate when posting your ill informed opinions about all parents who find themselves estranged.
Why was it OK for you to develop anxiety and depression just so you could stay in what sounds like, from your description, a very unhealthy and toxic relationship?
Why is one life more important than another?
One life isn't more important than another *MotherofTwo", who said it was?
im amazed , i have never heard of this before
i googled it after reading this post
wow is all i can say
going no contact with instructions
thats quite scary
what are our children teaching their children by going no contact
and what worries me is our children could find themselves in the same situation once their children have grown up
I suppose nannytracey that our children are teaching their children that no relationship is sacred, and can be discarded at any time even for the smallest of reasons in some cases.
There is probably a good chance that our GC will go down the NC route with their own parents as they may learn by example.
What are our estranging AC going to say to their own C when faced with the nightmare they've put us through? 'You can't do this, we've always done our best etc etc'. What will they say when the response they get is 'why not, you did?'.
That's another reason I think going nc is a very risky step to take and think lc (lowered contact) is preferable (not that many of us gps like that either). On another site, I saw where some dils were asked about that - you know, what if your kids do the same to you - and their response was that they won't make the same mistakes. But the next generation may have other issues that bother them and that they see as a reason for pushing their parents/pils away, reasons that today's young parents aren't anticipating. So, imo, setting the nc example is risky, no matter how the young parents plan to behave as ils, etc.
We are NC with my MIL so I thought I'd throw my 10ps worth in.
If we go down the same road as we did with MIL then I wouldn't blame my children for going NC with us. Infact I'd encourage it.
If my kids tell me that they want No contact, I'd think I've massively messed up somewhere down the line as a parent.
I'd think that for my children to want me, their Mum, out of their life I must cause a great deal of hurt from being a part of their life. That isn't their fault, that's mine.
I'd tell them how sorry I am, for everything and tell them how much I love them and that I'm always here if they need me.
I'd then leave them alone as I'd think that's the least I can do considering the amount of hurt I'd already caused them.
But that's just me and having seen first hand the absolute carnage created from this for the person who went 'No contact' I'd never in a million years put my children through that.
I cannot speak for all people who are no contact with their parents or families but I can tell you that the decision and process of doing so is extremely painful. It is often an extremely difficult decision to make.
If a person truly is in an NPD family system the only thing more painful than going no contact is staying in it.
Persons from an NPD family system are likely already orphans before they go no contact. Usually, in this system, the adult child has already communicated their feelings over toxic behavior and have made countless attempts to resolve it and reconcile but are not heard or responded to. Their feelings are discounted again and again and the same harmful behaviors continue. It comes to a point where the attempt to communicate the issues are futile and only bring more dismissal and harm.
Often, in this particular type of system, the grandparents attempt to manipulate the grandchildren against the parent which is harmful to a child.
People in the family are manipulated against one another, sibling relationships are lost, and the adult child is degraded, alienated, ostracized.
I am a professional trained and skilled to assess and diagnose. In a true NPD family system the children, adult children and particularly the scapegoat, are psychologically tortured.
The sad thing about true covert narcissism is it is incurable by the very nature of the disorder. They believe that nothing is of their doing, they are the victims, always.
There is no reconciliation possible. The behavior is so toxic that the adult child is forced to distance themselves in order to find health, strength, confidence and joy. Their kids need them to find this freedom. It is sad when an adult child needs to distance themselves from their parents and is often a last resort.
March, you are spot on! Your view is what a healthy view looks like!
March's "view is what a healthy view looks like" when it stems from an abusive relationship with a parent Jean. It i far from a healthy view when parents find themselves estranged without justification.
What you say about narcissism is quite correct Jean and is just as applicable to adult children and/or their partners who decide to go no contact without justification.
I don't doubt that you are "a professional trained and skilled to assess and diagnose". However if that is indeed the case, you should know better than to assume that all cases of NC are to to the narcissism of the estranged parents.
I would have thought that your professional training would have enabled you to recognise where there are cases when it is the estranging AC who are at fault and not their parents.
Smiles, I would ask you to read the beginning of my post where I was careful to state that “I cannot speak for all who go no contact” and “if one truly is from NPD family system”.
What I felt was a healthy response from March is when she explained that if her child was that upset she would seek to understand why, assess her own behavior and be willing to compromise.
The reason I stated that I can’t speak for all who go no contact is for precisely the reasons you expressed.
The remainder of my post went on to explain the true NPD family system and what that is like.
It has taken many rewrites of this post:
When your 6 year old goes out to the fence to tell gm bye bye, & comes back asking “why does gm always pump me for information?” When your spouse shares that gm encouraged spouses own sibling to physically abused the spouse’s disability until the spouse cried & they both laughed at the spouse, when you find out that the sibling sexually abused the younger one & gm pretended to ignore the signs & reports, & the only response given to family conference to try to keep the family together, was an expressiinless “get out of my house”, & gm controls the rest of the family to the point they were afraid to sit with the spouse & children during the funeral for fear retaliation from gm; then you know why the painful breaking up of the family is necessary for sanity. & why this is never an easy road to travel. We are not talking about “toxic” as in “gm took my toys away until chores were done”. We are talking about 4 year old children thrown out & locked outside in the middle of the night because they were scared & crying: & gm would watch them through the window & laugh as the child wept. We are talking about emotional invest where the gm tries to alienate their own child from any other person their child wants to have a relationship with.
We are talking about taking a grandchild to a “poker night” that is really a “rape the child” night. Yes it does happen too often, & too often regularly.
We are talking about gm who sold their own children into prostitution, without an addiction to explain it (true example from my own family).
We are talking about gm who would break out all the windows in the house, because they weren’t invited to dinner (another true example).
We are talking about trauma bonding & Stockholm Syndrome.
We are finally empowering our own children not to encourage or allow abuse to continue under our roofs in our own houses.
Then when gm thinks that not allowing her to continue to abuse those grandchildren is her right & privilege, we go no contact.
For the sake of our own children.
I will never allow anyone to abuse the vulnerable, especially not my own family abusing me or mine.
i think going nc in some situations can help
all depends on the situation
when it comes to your own children i think its a bit harsh
if you had a healthy relationship
but just like everything else in this world
you get a new craze everyone does it
people and feelings dont really matter any more
im still shocked it comes with instructions
I couldn't agree with you more Tired. No one is and has ever said that abusive GP's should have any contact whatsoever with their GC. But not all GP's are being denied contact because they are abusive. It's their GC's parents in some instances who are abusing their parents/p's.i.l. and using their children as weapons to do so by denying them contact.
I did read the beginning of your post Jean but IMO your post was bias and gave no consideration that some parents and GP's are estranged through no fault of their own.
Not all estranged P's and GP's are undeserving of such treatment and not all estranged P's and GP's deserve to be treated the way they are.
Yes, you did say you couldn't speak for all, but you only spoke for those whose decision to go no contact is justified; you didn't speak for those when it isn't.
Extraordinary.I wondered where you all were.I couldn't imagine that you'd be quiet. After all,nothing is ever your fault is it? And you NEED somewhere to bad mouth your own children and trivialise their problems and deny your own abusive behaviour.In seven years of belonging to Adult Children Narcissistic Parent groups I've encountered maybe 2 or 3 cases which weren't genuine...That's out of thousands. The rest are sadly damaged people who struggle to do the most unnatural painful thing:cut contact with their own mother. They want to believe shell change. They blame themselves. They are the opposite of what you describe. These groups BTW are ALWAYS private or secret....so well done for snooping in a place you've no business being. If my child or grandchild went NC with me I would get myself to the nearest therapist with them and I would LISTEN. I CERTAINLY wouldn't just assume that they were wrong and that I wasnt. This post is such a perfect example of projection that I would like to put it in my book.(I won't...don't worry). You have no chance of getting your child back. You will never change. You'll never accept how abusive you've been and you'll never have empathy or a conscience. Call it a cult all you want. Claim we are brainwashed all you want. It won't help. The ship has sailed and your AC are healing themselves in a safe place,finally free of the evil which has all but ruined their lives. There is no hope for you. NPD worsens with age. Best hang on to those people who put up with you...It won't be easy....for them.
I don't think it's a craze, people falling out and not speaking has been going on for 100s of years. Back in the day it was 'the black sheep of the family' and so on.
It's only so commonly spoke of now because of
1) The internet and
2) Mental health becoming alot talked about. Emotional and mental abuse is being spoke about more and people are becoming aware.
3) People are talking about it.
It's not a laugh. It's not enjoyable or fun. I very much doubt anyone with a sane mind wakes up one morning after having a great, happy and healthy relationship with somone for their entire life and thinks 'I'm going to cut my mom out of my life forever because it sounds like a right barrel of laughs'
Its 99% usually the last option.
There are tips to use to get through to said person, ways to word thing and things like that.
There's also a script that the person being 'cut off' from will do. This is almost always with Narc traits or at least very toxic.
We was warned about these and was told how to handle it and sure enough they was correct and in the same order.
First it's the verbal abuse.
Second, 'I have no idea what I've done'
Third, FIL laying the guilt on thick.
Forth, more verbal abuse
And lastly an illness, something fairly dramatic that will just go away on its own. My MIL chose to lie about having Cancer.
So there are instructions but it's in response to the batshit craziness you'll encounter trying to distance yourself. You can't just take a step back and have low contact because that isn't allowed either.
My heart breaks for the regular posters here who are once again being told that it is their fault that they have been cut off by their children. I don`t believe any of them have resorted to verbal abuse - but they will have shed many tears because they are devastated by what has happened. Of course they are ready to LISTEN. But how can you LISTEN if your child won`t talk to you and won`t give you any explaination for their behaviour? How can you "get to the nearest therapist with them" if they refuse to go anywhere with you or communicate with you in any shape or form? The majority of estranged parents want to put things right but how can they do that if they are met with a brick wall? In my opinion the child -often for trivial reasons - just doesn`t want their parent in their life anymore and has absolutely no interest in working together to put things right
What this thread has demonstrated time and time again eddiecat is that it's the contributions from those who have estranged themselves that are full of anger and bitterness.
For me it begs the question why? Why are those who have decided to go no contact so angry? They've got what they wanted, their parents/p's.i.l. are out of their lives and out of the lives of their children so what's the problem? Why do so many feel the need to come onto threads such as this to vent their anger and constantly seek to justify their actions? Why are those reading this thread expected to believe all their horror stories and simultaneously disregard those of us who with total honesty and heart ache say we did nothing to deserve this?
It is they who in the words of MrsBarbarian feel the need to "bad mouth" their parents or parents in law.
This has been an excellent thread and as it nears it's 1000th post I for one will be sad to see it end. Sad, because those of us who are estranged have responded to the heart breaking stories of abuse from AC who've had no choice but to cease contact with their abusive parents, and refuse GP contact with their children, have always been responded too with care, compassion and understanding.
Well I hate to shatter your illusion March but yes, some times "with a sane mind (does) ...... after having had a great relationship with someone their entire life" and decides "to cut my mom (and dad) out of my life for ever" and not because they think it will be "a barrel of laughs" but often because of the disturbed mind of their partner.
As for "batshit craziness" well you simply wouldn't believe what we've been subjected too by our ES and his wife. Of course you wouldn't, you only see estrangement from your own perspective and then have the audacity to accuse others of doing the same.
Smiles, I am very sorry for your pain. I haven’t seen any posts here that suggest other scenarios don’t occur.
The subject here had to do with narcissistic parents. Not all cases would involve this disorder but for the ones that do it has been a traumatic and painful process to disconnect.
I’ll try and read through the posts again but I haven’t seen any personal accounts yet.
In a true NPD family system the problem is that those who really have the disorder will never see, and don’t have the ability to see the reasons why.
This is a specific family system. There are thousands of other scenarios. Too many to even guess.
What I do know that in the majority of situations cutting off ties with one’s parents is the most unnatural, painful thing to have to do.
I have yet to see an AC break ties with a close and harmonious family. I’m sure it happens and for those situations I feel great compassion. The pain is as deep as those who are forced to cut ties for legitimate reasons.
For those who’s AC refuse to try and work things out, who refuse to communicate, did it begin in childhood? Adolescence? Maybe there was a moment or period of time when things began to change?
All feelings of loss and pain are valid. All should be respected.
Yes Jean some AC do "break ties with a close and harmonious family" of that you can be sure.
There are 40 pages to this thread and it would take some time for you to read them all but if you do, you will see personal accounts, my own included.
In answer to your question, our ES refused to work things out after he'd married and once his first child had been born. We, like so many estranged p's and gp's can identify the moment or period of time when things began to change, but that's all we know.
We don't know why because we've never been told and the reason(s) given to others have no basis in truth.
"All feelings of loss and pain are valid. All should be respected" but they're not are they and some of the posts here are evident of that.
Smiles I will try and read through. I certainly respect your feelings.
I can actually relate. Once my estranged brother married his second wife I was cut out completely. What I’ve been subjected to is awful as well.
I could say there was no justifiable reason but there are reasons that took me many years to untangle. Sadly, it was never in my control which is why nothing could be rectified.
I lost my older niece and nephew whom I was very close with and never got to know my younger nieces. They manipulated the kids against me.
When dealing with true Npd abuse it is painful. That is what I see being expressed here. I saw one who is sadly still in the throes of the effects of horrific abuse. Other than that, it seems everyone is going through the same struggles with loss of family.
That's the awful thing about estrangement, when children become pawns in the 'game'.
I'm sorry you've experienced the pain of estrangement and lost your niece and nephew Jean as well as your brother.
I've literally typed out that my MIL sent verbal abuse to my husband and myself on 2 occasions (that I know about) plus other things.
You've then just said you don't believe me, diluted it down and go on to say * Of course they are ready to LISTEN. But how can you LISTEN if your child won`t talk to you and won`t give you any explaination for their behaviour?*
That's exactly how it goes.
You aren't believed, it's whittled down into a 'silly little argument' and it's pointless trying to communicate with someone who does that so they stop.
I'm not saying there aren't horrible AC out there who have some type of personality disorder.
But in our case there was warnings, there was cross words, there was arguments, there was awkwardness, there was 100 Red flags showing along with bright lights flashing.
He didn't wake up one morning after no alterations, no arguments and roses round the door and decides to cut his own flesh and blood off.
There are always reasons.
Im also not bitter and angry
Why do so many feel the need to come onto threads such as this to vent their anger and constantly seek to justify their actions?
Because I was answering a question to those who asked what AC tell their children or expect from them when they are adults and if there's a fear of being 'cut off'
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