Continued support and fun aspects too of rebuilding lives after estrangement can't believe 4 years and we still here to offer help, friendship and support.TWO

Oh my SmilelessI haven't thought of Tom Jones in many years. The women here used to throw their panties( knickers) onstage in the 70's. Not sure you will want to do that.
Sorry about the leaks and all. I can't trust any of those people, builders, contractors etc. And they take forever calling back.
Thanks Celebgranfor explaining. Our husbands have good hearts and wanted to make things right in the family.
YogagirlI like what you said about not being punished enough for what you don't know. We feel exactly the same way.
Fireworks, fireworks, fireworks. That's all I have heard for a week now and will hear it for a week after the 4th.
Did I tell you all that the lady who did my pedicure put a hole in my heel? It's been painful for a week. She was so busy talking she didn't look at how hard she was using that cheese grater thing until she broke the skin. I would love a week without a foot problem.

Smilless I am lifelong cliff fan shame we didn't clincide concert with visit?

Just Skyped Steve and his partner they seem so happy in new home, I am ??as Steve is off for 4 weeks tomorrow and won't be able speak or text,

Never mind that's life,

Yes Smilelss dh knows I want no more letters ever to her she has to be dead to me like I am to her,

It was wonderful seeing. My niece and little ones life isn't all bad,

I feel todaymhas been bit too much was such stressful week having daughter of couple we fallen out with over was lovley (long story her mum has problems mentally and didnt bring her up) but could done with just chilling then onto visit Joan love her our 93 year old neibor shOut shout won't wear h aid I have moderate hearing difffcuoty and now wear aid all time in left ear no way do I want be like her!?

Dh left. E stuck with her cos we both tired it bought on a domestic oh dear we were going try get through new month without them and only 2nd day,?

Will post more later off see Joan ??lucklegs so sorry that you been upset ?

Yes Rhinestone your right about the GC being held as pawns. Even though I would have been terrible sad not to see my D, they could have let me see my beloved GC, but then I wouldn't have been punished enough, for what I still don't know I was thinking that if I got my visitation rights to the GC, through that I would get to see my D and then maybe through that reconcile with her, but not to be

Luckylegs that's how I feel when I go in a church, I get very emotional, I try to get out of funerals as I cry more than the immediate family

I had the same rip-off with a gas leak Smileless, after staying all day and re-doing pipes outside, he finally said the gas leak was actually inside, my hob! Gave me a bill for £400 for the work he'd done, then went on to say, get yourself a new hob and I'll fit it for £175. I called in someone else and sure enough they confirmed I'd been ripped off Enjoy Tom Jones when you go, I'm sure it will be a great concert. As you're so near, why not get a pair of binoculars, bottle of prosecco and sit on your sun-deck for a free one

Rhinestoe. Mediation it is law now here so by refusing to attend she is wasting court time as we. NOw have to make court application do you understand ?

Afternoon ladies; apologies for not having been on for a few days but we've had a week of mixed fortunes. Went to see Cliff Richard on Thursday and he was great. We weren't sure if we'd enjoy it but are now so pleased that we went.

I can see why your friend enjoyed it so much Yogagirl and booked to see him again. Tonight we're going to see Tom Jones and we know he'll be singing 'You can keep your hat on' because we could hear them practicing; that's how near our roof terrace is to the open air theater.

We're having a new kitchen floor fitted and the joiner arrived Wednesday morning. As with everyone, we'd had some terrible weather, pouring with rain and strong winds. We pulled back the flooring from the patio doors and the floor was soaking wet; he of course, couldn't proceed.

We had some leaks around two bedroom windows shortly after moving in and the builder came and re-sealed them all after our initial problems. We contacted him again a few weeks ago because both shower cubicles were leaking due to be wrongly installed, cost us £414 to have them sorted out, and when we asked him to reimburse us he refused; said it wasn't his responsibility as the house is free hold and not lease hold.

We emailed him on Wednesday and once again he simply wasn't interested so we lost patience and told him if he didn't send someone round to sort it out we'd take him to court. He then offered to come and reseal the windows; what a brilliant idea, resealing them for a third time when already doing so hadn't worked, and said he'd get under the patio doors sealed because 'he'd probably missed that bit'. We stood our ground and said we wanted the problems properly investigating and if he didn't do it, we'd get someone in and then go to court if necessary to get our money back.

He sent someone round and it turns out that he hadn't sealed under the patio doors so that's now been done. After several hours diagnosing the problem with the windows, it appears to be the wall at the end of our roof terrace. It wasn't capped before the coping stones were put on and the mortar used between the stones is so crap that water has gradually seeped through.

Not too big a job BUT as you'll all know, Mr. S.'s glass balcony, his pride and joy that took hours of painstaking work to assemble and erect is fixed to the top of the wall. Well I swore, then apologised to the 2 lovely builders, then burst into tears.

They've assured us that between them and Mr. S., the balcony can be uninstalled, the problem with the wall sorted and the balcony put back within a day. We've told him that if the a... hole we purchased the house from wont agree to pay him, we'll go ahead, pay him ourselves then go to court to get the money back inc. what we paid out on the shower cubicles; might also claim for stress.

It's the same for our lovely girls next door who thankfully don't have a glass balcony but do have a mortgage, work all the hours they can to pay their bills and don't have much spare cash.

I could wring his bloody neck and that's just for starters. Thankfully we both still love the house, where it is and our 'surrogate daughters' next door.

I'm so sorry that once again being ignored by your ED has upset you Celeb, I was worried that would happen if your DH wrote to her and she didn't respond. I hope he's taken notice and doesn't contact her again on your behalf, he means well of course but for both your sake's it's probably best left.

Yes, less than 2 weeks to go. Ooooh, wouldn't it be great as we've both got upgrades if our rooms were next to each other. And yes get a cleaner; brilliant idea.

Going to court is such a momentous decision Rhinestone, all I can do is wish you and your DH all the luck in the world what ever decision you make. And it goes without saying that if you want to come back here, you'll be more than welcome.

There are so many triggers Luckylegs. Mr. S. looked on FB yesterday and there was the post he'd made exactly 5 years ago to the day, in which we thanked ES and wife for our GC's lovely Christening and all the work they'd done. If only we'd known then what we know now, still if we had we wouldn't have enjoyed the day and at least we have that memory.

There was a message asking him if he wanted to re post it; he declined of course.

Rhinestone, can you not come home for a visit? It must be so hard having that longing to come home but know your husband is going through a bad time, now isn't the right time, but maybe one day in the not so distant future. Today I got quite upset in Church, I saw a new mother with her baby there, I thought of my daughter whose birthday is soon, how I loved her and the tears slid down my cheeks, but no one saw thank goodness. Time to open a bottle I think.

Celeb - definitely get a cleaner in for a few weeks - about 12 years ago I started doing a couple of hours a week of housework etc for a lady who has serious back problems - it leaves her and her husband free to do the things they enjoy - and we`ve become great friends. But don`t do what they do - they tidy up before I get there!!

CelebgranWhat do you mean "it would go against her"? If the judge can't legally do anything like demand your GC see you how does it go against her?
By all means hire someone to clean your home after your operation. It will free up your DH to take care of you. I'm so happy you will be out of pain after this long ordeal. My DH is going for cortisone shots for his neck. They are going to put him out for it. He has arthritis, bone spurs and degeneration of the discs but not ready enough for an operation. I have never seen him in such pain.
We are getting ready to celebrate ( 4th of July) our independence from you all. I just want to come back. Our president is so embarrassing for many people.

I guess my thinking is that we are all ready estranged. It's not like they can estrange us further. Last night while having dinner with friends, one of them mentioned that someone I knew, whose son I also knew, were estranged from each other over a business deal. And the son, of course, wouldn't let his father see the grandchildren. So once again instead of having a discussion with his dad he cuts him off from the innocent GC who don't have a say. It's not like the father was mean and cruel to the GC. I guess that's the only weapon our children have. They use the GC as a weapon to get back at us. They use the GC as pawns for their infantile reasons.
*m

They say a grieving brain works differently to a normal brain and I really do think that is correct. I would never have foreseen myself going to court, but I was so desperate to see my beloved GC & D that my heart ruled my head!

I only had one session with the councillor/mediator, but she was so lovely, sympathetic and helpful, wish I could have had another, but when my D didn't respond to the invitation to attend the second one together with me, that was the end of that.

I know it's not wise to say if only but if I could turn back time, I would have kept completely quiet, stayed away and waited. But then that is exactly what Smileless did, and she, like me, is still waiting ;-(

Celebgran I think you are right, that's another aspect of applying to Court - for me I know my esDS would be very stressed and affected as would his wife and it would impact the children. As his mother, do I want to put him through that, even if I would give the world to be seeing them all again and have them in my
life?

I couldn't do it to him and them - put them through Court hearings.

Maybe some will think I am a coward.

Also, we can all get counselling any time we want - either by going to one of the big counselling and psychotherapy websites - or asking our GPs for counselling or CBT to help deal with the estrangement pain.

Rhinestone I would go for mediation like yogagirl says it's helpful in our case I was tooo upset at yet another olive branch ignored and mediator was so kind it made me cry,

Thanks yogagirl and for you too ??it's hard you. It got partner to help boost you, tho sometimes we tear chunks out of each other, my mood swings since been on morphine and in so much pain have been awful,
He is a saint but I have to accept he will ne Ed be tidy or see need to wipe worktopsl or clean washbasins baths loos, he hoovers i dust clean and tidy but i worry after my op so am thinking employing cleaner for, couple weeks from an agency not keen but may help.

Yogagirl you went through hell at court and itnwas totally wrong because now it's law to mediate and a
I was told judge sits in room with us and Tor and her husband and heads both sides and because she refused to mediate it would go agsint her for wasting judges time. In the end at 72 I didn't want out my husband through it, let it go! One day she will know how much we loved her, our little first adored grandchild,

Thank you Yogagirlfor your suggestion. So you are saying that even if they don't come you can still get some help. I have gone for some counseling but DH has not. I do not give up but my DH accepts things more than I do. It may be good for him.Yogagirl
I'm not expecting anything from ESS but we are all ready distressed so we need to know if asking for visitation would be acceptable. What's one more day of stress? I'm leaving it all up to my DH... it will be his decision.
Have a pain free weekend

Rhinestone As I said before, going to court opens a can of worms, there will be mud slinging & lies, you are not allowed to say "Hang on a minute, that's not true! by the time you are allowed to speak that lie is way down the line of lies and isn't then corrected! It becomes a fight and only they will win, I wish I had kept completely quiet from the beginning, but at the beginning you are so traumatized and in shock that of course you do retaliate.
On the other hand mediation, for me, was wonderful, the councillor was lovely and helped me a lot. So maybe go for that, your EstSS & d.i.l are 'invited' to come along to the next one, but in my case they declined. Best of luck

Celebgran and for Rosie

RhinestoE we went into mediation last October, itmupset me greatly our daughter didn't even answer the solicitor letter.

We could have carried on to apply to court and our daughter would then have wrong footed herself as mediation is now law before court application but I was too ? distressed,

It's like we are dead to her.

28 years of my life working so hard to care for her emotional, financially my kids were my world, rather foolish now with hindsight,

Dear son off abroad a month for work upsetting as he will be away for our anniversarie just home before my op,

I will try hard let it all go and keep positive for my dear husband, I need to try and keep fit as possible as is big operation.

Thanks sparklygran and lucklylegs also special thanks for lovely pm have just answered.

We are all vulnerable and much as we try to cope there are times it hurts like hell we have feelings after all.

It was wonderful have cuddles with my beautiful great niece and nephew and boy does it help.

Dh just gone work so Rosie and I are resting and caring for each other today!

Oh thank u northern soul what lovely thing to,say! Xxx

Celebgran,we are all forming a circle of love and support.

You may not recognise our faces, but all share the same empathy and experience.

It's hard to be strong when you are in pain both physical and emotional.
You are a loving,caring mum and that will never change.

Rhinestone am sorry your thoughts about applying for visitation might be stirring things up. An added barrier I understood from the advice about grandparent access from Families Need Fathers, is that a grandparent has to apply to the Family Court for permission to seek visitation.

Celebgran seinding you strength, of course at vulnerable times is when it all hurts more. Be strong through it. It is what it is. .

Yogagirl snap, it is sad but now (I have said before) I feel supported, less shame and worry after finding GN and hearing that it is not as unique and shame making as I was thinking.

Lucklegs and others brave enough to look on MN....I would be too frightened. The young can be so judgmental when in the first years of family life, and MiL are easy targets.

TGIF everyone - have the best weekend you can.

Thanks lucklegs I don't know how could cope withOut you Smilelss , eddiecat rhinesotne yogagirl and our little support group.

I will be ok jstmbit tearful, worry over rosie too, and lady from acquacsie lost her husband suddenly then sis i law last month, it's hard sometimes isn't it?

I will bounce back seeing my dear niece and little ones tomorrow that always helps just had chat to dear son too.

It just hurts doesnt it i really really tried to be good mum, and I can't believe what's happened Even now after 8 years cos I devoted my life to my kids they were my world, and I was determined my depression would not affect them, I worked sooo hard to care for them and give them all i could, my daughter needed so much emotional suport and I never ever turned her away right up to all this happening.

What did I do that was so wrong?

Sorry I am bit low aren t I it will pass.

?Celeb, what a pity your rejection has been thrown in your face again, know your dh meant well, he misses your d too, but it is so hard to come to terms with your own d not wanting you, best not to contact again if you can help it. You are bound to be worried about surgery and feel vulnerable, try to focus on what you do you do have, which is other loving family and friends. You have shown unconditional love, but it was thrown back, so just focus on you and dh and the life you age made since it all began. We all suffer these set backs, because we are not hard people so of course we hurt. Glad Rosie has come through alright.
.

Lucklegs remember we been nijacked by mumsnetters on here before now? I used go on there when desperate for info not anymore

They are a bit of foul mouthed lot as you say are they all perfect mums?

Smilelss we been on phone and upgraded our room at majestic, less than 2 weeks now!

Hope we can meet up too lucklylegs and yogagirl at some point,

I itch to write to my Estrsnged daughter and say how lonely and scarey itnis waiting for major back surgery and surely she could at least send few words of comfort to her own mum? Even if she deosnf want to offer any suport as her dad asked her. It's just woken all my deep hurt that she really doesn't t give s damn we are dead to her,

I thought I had moved on quite well but I guess not as well as had hoped.

Dear son off to Afghanistan for month on Monday been Paris this week, so won't see him until after op.
He just texted calling later boy am i glad I had him.

Little Rosie recovering from her operation was shock yesterday bless her bladder scan was clear so we decided gonahead have breast tumour removed and she seems very perky, cancer hadn't spread either so what wonder dog we have!

I managed acquacsie but felt v stressed, sadly bought on domestic with dh over housework!

He retires finally In December so been fine tuning accounts I not really got to grips with new windows but feel proud of my accounts documents.

sadly yogagirl there is harm done as it has greatly upset me to have it confirmed yet again that my daughter doenst give a damn about me and has awakened all sorts of emotions rather not disturb when I have so much stress facing major surgery however I know he meant well.

I have asked him not to contact her again on my behalf

Okay so now I'm having second thoughts about visitation. On one hand I feel we have nothing to lose and on the other hand they could depise us more. I'm only interested in my husband and I seeing the grandchildren. My DH is not even concerned with his son.
Unlike my son who took full responsibility for his estrangement of us my ESS will never do that. He and I had a great relationship. He took me out for my birthday every year. He is a teacher also and we were friends. He may be mad that he thinks I wrote him an email in answer to his wife saying her children deserved a better grandfather. But it was my husband and I together that wrote the email only it came from my phone. And why she would say that is beyond us. We babysat for three years every week. My DH is the ONLY grandfather for those boys. And why can't our children " talk it out" if they're mad. To say nothing is such cowardice. They are both teachers whom I sure call children out for bad behavior and talk to them about it. So why not their family? My ESS does not talk to his mom on and off when he feels like it but allows his wife and children to see and talk to her. Why not us?
I feel terrible for my DH but at least he has my two grandchildren.