Continued support and fun aspects too of rebuilding lives after estrangement can't believe 4 years and we still here to offer help, friendship and support.TWO

Fairy doll. With due respect, whatever the control, the expression, go on kill your self is not the message of anyone under control. Everyone knows that simple statement, she still has a mind of her own,

Yogagirl. From what you have said about your SIL and his lovely mother, it was probably their input into that message from your estD. They obviously have a lot of control over her (which she may be totally oblivious to) but, hopefully, the time will come when she sees the light and manages to break free.

Yoga girl, forget the cards and the presents, how can a person say "hurry up and kill yourself, mom".? She needs to be on her knees over broken glass and ask forgiveness. Is she mentally ill or on drugs? Is there a chance she can't remember what she said? If the answer to these questions are no, you need to question as to why you want her back. Just because you gave birth to her, does not mean she can turn out decent. Would anyone say that to another human being, except somene without any sense of what is right or wrong, to rubbish all you have been. Sorry to be so blunt, but emphatically I would not want her unless she had a personality transplant. I wish I could help you, she has bought you so low to put up with this. Please, put yourself first, focus on the special person you are. You owe it to yourself and nc to move on and gave a good life, get her out of your head. She has to realise like Smileless said, the 3 r's, she would be lucky then, if you reconsidered your opinion of her. From what you say, that is not likely. But you are worth more.

Yogagirl I would find it very hard to reconcile if someone even a dear adult child, had said that when you were suicidal.

After all you (and we all) have a duty to look after ourselves and not put ourselves in danger. Someone who would say that to you when you were in such a frame of mind would need careful handling.

I think third party involvement would be needed - I know we all would be over the moon if our estAC approached us to reconcile and let us see our grandchildren - but perhaps a three way with any professional who is responsible for your care, to 'safeguard' you, might be something worth setting up now. Maybe your GP? Any Psychologist you saw or see? Ask them if they would be happy to meet you and your daughter, together, if reconciliation was ever on the cards?

In my own case, 2 years ago I wrote to my estDS's vicar and asked if he could please speak to my estDS and estDiL and express my apology and sorrow and that we had all fallen out. I would for instance be happy to meet with their vicar and them.

(He replied after 2 months saying he would pray for all of us and that things would ease with time, but a reconciliation was not presently something he could effect).

Stay safe and keep safe Yogagirl.

3 books celebgran thats a marvellous part of holidays, reading by the pool. I am still reading my present one, a book about Anne Bronte, my favourite Bronte.

Off to church then to peel a mountain of spuds later for tomorrow.

Chins up, ladies.

OMG Yogagirl that's awfulI can't understand how anyone could be so cruel.

I don't know how with all that's happened an, EAC can be welcomed back into the family and the relationship they've destroyed. How would you go about it? Would you talk about everything that's been said and done? Would that do any good? Or do you make a pact never to talk about it? Do you draw a line under the whole incident and try to forget the pain they've put you through?

I don't think a reconciliation would be sudden. The approach made by the EAC may come out of the blue but I would think that reconciliation would take time to achieve.

For me it would have to start with an apology and asking for forgiveness. I heard a Bishop talking a couple of years ago about forgiveness and he said that in order to forgive someone, the person seeking forgiveness must demonstrate the 3 R's; remorse, repentance and restitution but how can they make restitution in this situation? They can't turn back the clock, they can't give back to us the years we've lost with our GC, all those birthdays and Christmas'. All the mothers and fathers days that we spent like hermits because we didn't want to see generations of families out together celebrating.

It's been a long time since I yearned for that 'phone call, email, text message or knock at the door. TBH the thought of it now turns my stomach because it scares me; he scares me. My love for him scares me because when he cut us out, my unrequited love for him and the yearning for him to come back almost destroyed me.

I don't want the person he's become in my life and as neither of us can turn back the clock and I can't have the wonderful young man he used to be, how could we ever be reconciled?

Sorry Yogagirl I've responded to your question with questions of my own and no answers; perhaps there aren't any.

I have a question for you ladies;

I have often thought, what would I do if there was suddenly a reconciliation, as I'm sure you have too. I loved and adored my now estranged daughter, and then the same with her C my GC, never said or did one adverse thing to her or her nasty H, until the court proceedings, and then I took my gloves off, but still I said nothing about my D only about him & his mother that had pushed my D to estrange.

But the terrible deeds & words from my, yes brainwashed, daughter, how can you then move back into a relationship? When my estD knew I was very suicidal, she sent me a message saying "hurry up and kill yourself mum!" The terrible way she brought my late mum & dad into the sh**, her nannie & granddad that adored her, and she them! How she has made her sister ill with the trauma of it all and her brother to estrange too! How do you then welcome her [him] back into the family that she [he] destroyed! [which is what I want] but how???

Thank you Smileless sounds lovely where you are and thanks for invite, my little Westie would love to come for a play with your cats Yes, In my spare room are 4 big gift sacks for my GC, a smaller one for my Son, and a little gift bag for estD, but these were for the first Xmas of estrangement, I now just ad the cards, I stopped with the cards for my Son after the first few years and my estD was just the one for her birthday, just before I was cut out. I only see them if I go into the spare room, so not under my nose, and I only go in to 'post' my GC cards

Good post Luckylegs Yes if you are not estranged you think you would be strong and not put up with the nonsense, but when it actually happens to you it is truly overwhelming! 4.5yrs of grieving has certainly taken it's toll on me

Smileless, I read your post about the chest and the things you are lovingly putting in it and felt so sad for you and others doing the same. A strange thought came into my head, for me anyway, I thought if I was reading this and everything was just great with my family and this burden was not in my heart, I would think, how dare those children treat their parent in that way and I wouldn't put up with it and leave them to it. That was the confident me, but I think that is the right way, they really don't deserve us and we shouldn't let them spoil our lives, how did I enable myself to be like this, in all probability gc will pick up their parents negativity and who knows what is being said about me so I have no illusions, my granddaughter is now 16, almost a woman, she knows right from wrong and an incident recently made me aware that she thinks as her mother does. I have been making excuses as I am the bad guy in all this.

Glad you're enjoying your holiday Celeb but sorry that you're still in pain.

Dear Yogagirl perhaps keeping so many things for your GC is weighing too much on your mind and heart. Have you thought about just keeping the cards you've bought for them?

We ordered a toy chest a few weeks ago, still waiting for it be delivered. It's a wooden chest with both our GC's names on it and I'm looking forward to getting it and putting in the cards we've bought for their birthdays and Christmas' so far. There's just a few toys bought some time ago, poems and letters I've written and hope to carry on writing so one day they'll know they were deeply loved and greatly missed.

Well it's not a villa eddie, it's not abroad but we do have glimpses of the sea from our roof terrace and it's only a 15 min. walk to the beach and your more than welcome. You too Yogagirl, you can bring your little dog and she can play with ours; our cat too.

I came across this quote in a book I'm reading, it's anonymous but it really spoke to me: "The truth hurts for a little while, but lies hurt forever".

Hope book was good sparkkygran I am.on my third this holiday really enjoyed first two novels both quite emotional

We home sunday dh been fantastic so pleased we managed make most of holiday .
My pretend friend xxxx godmother went lot trouble tell me we missed good weather that's her.
However we have so enjoyed holiday despite my pain. Think I gave been posting more than anyone!

Thank you Chewbacca celebgran

Yogagirl I am not trying to advise nor tell anyone else to do as I do.

Today was due to go to research session with local public service, they cancelled at last minute so am free without anything planned today. Maybe start a new book after a tidy up.

Have a lovely bank holiday everyone. I have friend coming on Monday for a roast dinner. .

Thanks for advise ladies I feel like stopping with the cards, but then I think, when they do eventually get to read all their cards etc, they will think it stops when I was 7/6

Eddie cat do agree we will come toowe loving holiday wish I was fitter and missing Rosie but my fantastic husband caring for me in this lovely hotel

Sorry ref your dh family we are so vulnerable I think having gone through so much.

My sister was unkind when had my twin stay before holiday I realise he should get his own place.but I love him and wont turn him away my sister hasn't rung me all winter despite all I been through so I told her did t go.wellwhy are oeiole so unkind? U realise she jealous if our bond but be is her brother too

Yoga girl have you thought of doing blog like I do for xxxxxx?
I photograph each card and used to photograph gifts and vouchers until after 8 years no acknowledgement we just do cards. Its sad u have no address and sad they missing out on caring granny

It may be less painful than jeeoi g that sa k agree with luck leg s that's torture for you .

Yoga girl,I would send cards as long as I knew where to send them, when they were 18 I would try to access them through Facebook and send a message via that., if that wasn't possible I would leave a letter with my solicitor and if I am able to, leave them some money and a memento of me. One day they will know, no matter what the problems, I didn't estrange myself from them, it was thrust apon me. That they were always in my heart. I think you are putting yourself through hell, keeping that sack of cards and presents in the spare room. Everyone deals with it their way, but that would be a 24/7 reminder to me. You know I realy feel for your situation, it is just my opinion, perhaps I shouldn't give advice as I have no answers for me, I just do what I feel is right for me.

Sparklygran Maybe I should stop to, it is so painful, and yet it should have been a joy. Their cards are still sitting, waiting to be written in as they are just posted in their gift sacks in the spare room & I know they are not going to see them till, God only knows. What's others thoughts on this please, unlike others on here I have no add to post them.

eddiecat I know how you feel, with this truly awful estrangement, the last thing we want is another altercation with another family member. I often think of that dessert Island, but would have to have my little dog with me and means to make a cuppa

Going off on a tangent a bit - in addition to the problems we have with out DIL we are at the beginning stages of winding up a family business and tensions between husband and his 2 sisters are starting to mount. Whenever I read a tetchy email from one or other of them my stomach goes into knots. To be honest it wouldn`t be the end of the world if we did end up estranged from them as husband is not close to them anyway - but I just can`t face more disagreements and unpleasantness.
Has anyone got a desert island I can go and hide on?

Sparklygrantotally get it x

Sparkly

After years of pain and silence from estDS and estDiL when I sent presents and cards, I still find it easier to move on into positivity by sticking to my decision to not send presents nor cards any more.

The pain of hope had become too much and in the end, if the estrangement is never going to end, chasing it might cause me further unhappiness.

Manchester is awful.Was awful. Oh the joy of taking a child to a concert they so much want to go to. Sometimes evil walks among us.

Keep our children and grandchildren safe please.

Thank you Smileless

Yogagirland a BIG (((HUG)))

Thanks for your input re the b/day cards. I always write lots in the card & on the back page, like a letter, I try to be careful what I put, but it's hard as I want her to know the truth of who she is, who her family, her real family are, and how much I miss and love her and GS. But then after pouring my heart out, I seal it, walk to the spare room and 'post it' in their memory/gift sacks, along with a print out of the money gift, put in their savings account I opened for them.

Had lot trouble losing posts so managed put one on other thread ref cards

Its our turn soon xxxx9 on 8 June election day

I still find it sad yoga girl sorry to say
We will.send card and agree smiless brief live Nannie and grandad best I.photograph it for her blog so one day she will.know we never forgot her

TBH Yogagirl I no longer find buying and writing cards for our GC too much of a problem. But unlike you, we never really knew the eldest and of course have never seen the youngest.

We don't write long messages, just a simple 'love from nanna ..... and grand dad ....'. Maybe trying to write anymore than that would prove a step too far.

Yes, we are extremely lucky with 'our girls' next door. We've only known them 6.5 months but it feels much longer as we're all so comfortable together. This move has been a true blessing, it really has.

Glad you only watched the dancing Celeb and most generous of you to allow Mr. C. to dance with the acquacise tutor; I'm sure he'd have preferred to dance with his lovely wife though.

Oh don't worry about putting on a bit of weight, jut relax and enjoy.