I need help!

First can I say how sorry I am for your family situation. I have read many of the posts on this thread and agree with the idea that you must all get some counselling to help deal with this awful situation. Your GP is the place to start as they can refer you for help which hopefully will be free. I'd just like to touch on one aspect of the situation, regarding the bad behaviour of your grandchildren. I think they are acting out their anger and bewilderment at their situation with you because they feel safe to vent their feelings with you, their grandmother. Both you and your daughter are struggling to deal with things, imagine how difficult it must be for two small kids. They desperately need help from a professional to allow them to process their feelings about the huge upset to their lives. Kids are aware of tensions and problems within a marriage and goodness knows how damaged they have been by living in the situation they were in when their parents were together and by all accounts things are still traumatic at home even though the father is no longer in the home. I understand how difficult it is for you to cope with their bad behaviour, but please don't give up on your grandchildren. They need someone who they feel will love them however they behave, and at the moment they are clearly very badly affected by recent events. I hope your daughter will get the help and support she needs, but please make sure the kids are referred too. Situations like this affect how kids develop, and can cause lifelong damage if it's not resolved. I wish you all well and hope you can find the help and support you all need. [Flowers]

Dear Bluegal - this is definitely the right place to come for support and advice for you.
I do agree though, that the situation is untenable for you - you need to keep yourself strong and look after yourself, or you will be no help to your DD.
She needs professional support, which it sounds as if she's started to get.
The children are confused with the situation and their behaviour is a direct response to this. It sounds as if mum is locked into her own unhappy world and you are having to deal with the day to day concerns of two very unhappy and confused young children. This does not excuse their behaviour, but it might help explain it.
They will be picking up on everyone else's emotions and if their father is being derogatory about their mum and you, he needs to be spoken to about the effect this is having. If he cares about them, he will not want them to be unhappy - which is what they are. It does sound as if social services need to be involved - for all of your benefit.

Take care and please look after yourself. xx

I have also been desperate about my GS's behavior and my inability to cope and yes not liked him very much when I wanted to adore him. I was also horrified I felt that way
His single mum had serious physical and mental health problems but she is now well, and he is a changed boy.

Others have made such wonderful suggests and their good behavior in school reflects that it is a happy place away from the stress. Bit like going to work for peace and quiet.

Is it possible for the children to spend time with their aunts and uncles and cousins especially in the holiday period, They may benifit from being part of their extended family at this time, especially if their is a male figure to guide them.

Homestart are a brilliant organization who have experienced volunteers (generally mums who's children have grown up). They are non-judgemental and offer all sorts of emotional and practical support. When my daughter had twins and lived a four and a half hour journey away from family, and one of the twins was born with some serious health issues, Homestart sent along a Great Ormond St. trained nurse. She was marvelous and visited once a week. She was able to listen to the worries and fears of both parents, she reassured them that they were in fact doing a good job and she would sit with the twins while the parents went out for a coffee at the local garden centre. She saved their sanity by letting them have an hour to themselves. knowing that the babies were safe and well cared for.

Bluegal Two agencies/groups that can help you are Home Start and Gingerbread, one a government agency offering help and advice for families with under-fives. The other a group for single parents and their families.

Thank you everyone for your replies. I won't write much more but just say am taking it on board and we are setting plans. Will let you know how we get on but your help and support has been amazing.

Oh, sorry, I see dd is already going for individual therapy. But the kids probably need it, too. Not everything is a discipline problem, after all. They probably have a lot of confused feelings to sort out.

Oh my word poor kids for them to have gone through so much at such a young age. No wonder they don't seam to have much trust or respect in adult's. My own children saw me in a bad relationship their own father. Their father would say some nasty things about me, meaning the children would be quite hard work when they came home from seeing him once a month if he could be bothered! He paid no maintenance for them or any of this other children the court didn't use to chase if there had been threats to you life or the children's lives in those days. I think it helped my children that when they had come back from a visit and started being cocky with me I would sit down and listen to them so when they use to tell me you can't tell me off because my Daddy say's. I would turn the table and say "ok lets sit down and talk about what Daddy say's, and why do you think Daddy said that?" It might be that the children just desperately need to have someone they can talk to rather than sweep whats happened to them under the carpet. My own children who are now adults have chosen not to be in contact with their own Dad now as they both feel he has disappointed them to many times. I have always told my children their farther loves them but it will always be in his own way.

What an articulate, sensible and fully committed person you sound and how brave of you to pour out your heart to us. You obviously have tremendous inner strength because of the way you have survived some of the events in your past that would have knocked many of us down for a lifetime.

Although I cannot offer or recommend any practical advice with the serious situation you are currently faced with, I am sure there will be many posts that may offer some guidance - I really do hope so.

Please don't Throw up your hands and stop believing in yourself and the wonderful role model you are to the rest of your family, Hang onto to that saying "nothing remains the same for ever" .... and if at all possible take a little time out for yourself and your own well being because the issues you describe will be surrounding you for some time. Every now and again it is t wrong and it doesn't hurt to try and put a little breathing space between the problem and yourself before having to step back into the ongoing struggle. It's called self survival and you've proved you have bucket loads of that quality in your DNA. Your one great mother and grandmother - that's for sure!

it sounds to me that you are doing a wonderful job in extremely difficult circumstances. I understand only too well why you feel things can't go on like this much longer.

You have already received some very sound and helpful advice. I only have a little about the two children.

You say they are doing very well at school, which is great. All the same I think you should get in touch with their form mistress (sorry I don't know the current term) and explain that you are worried about the way they behave at home, and when you take them to play with other children. As they are obviously well behaved at school their teachers may be able to help by telling you what works at school. (No child is ever perfectly behaved all the time at school, believe me, I used to teach).

The next thing is that you will need to try explaining some ground rules at home, or simply demanding better behaviour from them in your home. Along the lines already suggested: we don't behave like that here. The eight year old is certainly old enough to understand some firm rules that are adhered to. If or when he oversteps them, tell him that is not the way to behave, that he is not allowed to hit out, or whatever it is and sit him down on a chair, or stand him in the corner, with his hands behind his back (my mother's favourite punishment for naughty children). If he moves off, fetch him back, telling him that he is to stay there until he has counted to 100, or until a certain number of minutes are up by the clock, or until the egg timer rings, whatever you find suitable. The younger one should be able to understand these rules too, although it may take longer with the little one.

I think the rules must apply to both children - there was the same age gap between my sister and me, and I, as the elder, was dreadfully angry when she got away with behaviour that I was told off for. As grown ups we know that some bad behaviour has to be excused the younger child, but explain to the elder that the little one is too small to know it is wrong, making a point of the fact that the big boy knows how to behave. Tell him that when he behaves nicely he is helping the little one to learn what to do, as he of course looks up to his big brother. (Flattery will get you anywhere!)

It seems as if your daughter has got the message across that their bad behaviour is hurting you, but this may just be momentarily. If it is, remind them that they have been told they are hurting you. Reassure them that you love them and that when you get cross you are cross about the way they are acting, but that makes no difference to the fact that you love them, just as much as their mother does.

It is difficult explaining divorce to children who would all much rather have mummy and daddy living together. I would make sure the children realize that mummy and daddy have decided not to live in the same house any more, but that they still love their children. Unfortunately, you probably won't get away with not telling the older child why mummy and daddy aren't together any more. Sooner or later, he will demand an explanation. You hint daddy may already have provided one, so perhaps you should say as calmly as possible, if your daughter agrees, that grown ups sometimes just don't get along anymore, even although they love each other, and when that happens it is best for everyone if they don't live together.

Bluegal
Oliver James the psychologist has written a marvellous book called : Love Bombing: reset your child's emotional thermostat.
I'm not one for 'self help books but Oliver James is a brilliant man and I've seen this work.
If you have a Kindle, it's on Amazon for £6.00.

Bluegal....

I once mentioned in another post that the children who are the least lovable, are the ones who need our love the most.

Being angry with your grandchildren doesn't mean you don't love them. Unruly children can bring out the worst in us.

From a child's limited perspective however, a parents separation is like their entire world is falling apart. To make matters worse, one parent is pitting them against the other. Your daughter (understandably distraught) is the one they live with, so she takes the fall in their eyes. She may often lose patience with them too, hence giving the father's claims more credibility.

Your grandchildren's bad behavior is a cry for help. These children are confused and heartbroken. They may blame themselves for their parents break up. They may feel angry. The only way they know to act out is by misbehaving.

Children depend on their parents in order to feel loved, safe and secure. You're going to have to arm yourself with an enormous amount of patience. They need to feel that you love them very much and that bad behavior is unacceptable. Taking away privileges for bad behavior and rewarding them for good can help establish much needed boundaries.

As the adult you have the capacity to put things in perspective. With so much turmoil in these young lives, they need a lot of compassion and understanding. Not an easy thing....I get it. The children's pediatrician or your family doctor could recommend a parenting counselor.

Hi - lots of good advice on here for you Bluegal - I would echo all of it and advise you to access support through Children's Services or via a referral from a GP. The children need as much help in understanding what is happening and why they are behaving in the way they do. There IS help out there and their school will certainly be able to help. Check if there is a Nurture Group in their school ... it sounds as though they would really benefit from the type of help they offer. All the best.

I had to cut my post short, but a few more thoughts. I have three adult children and whenever they have a problem, it affects me too. You have a lot on your plate and for that reason you are going to need plenty of support.

Have you and your husband talked about some of the feelings you posted? He probably shares a lot of those same feelings. It helps sometimes to talk about things with someone you trust implicitly. You have also gotten a lot of good advice from all of us here. Perhaps together, you could develop an action plan to help your troubled daughter's family and yourselves. He is after all, your biggest ally.

Hi, I'm a former Women's Aid worker and survivor of DV. Your grandchildren are behaving in a way that is typical of some children who have suffered domestic abuse. They have learned that behaving in a bullying and abusive way gets results - after all it's what their father has been doing for years! Male abusers usually have little or no respect for women (apart from occasionally their own mother) and will undermine her at every opportunity - often as absent parents they will take it even further and actively encourage the children to take no notice of their mum and other female care givers.

I suggest as others have that you get some help. You could contact Womens Aid and find out if their are projects in your area that can help. Failing that it may be worth speaking to Social Services (with your daughters agreement). She has done everything in her power to safeguard her children by getting them out of the controlling situation. They have undoubtedly suffered emotional harm from their father's behaviour. I would also question his commitment to his children as he refuses to pay maintenance for them. This again is calculated controlling behaviour. He keeps his money and is able to indulge them during contact while ensuring their life with their mum is more difficult and treats not so generous. Personally, I explained to my children why their father could not live with us and that his behaviour was not acceptable and that he needed to learn to behave properly - rather like being excluded at school. It worked for me though it's not the approach favoured by all! Maintain your standards of acceptable behaviour while understanding why it's happening. There are some work books etc that children can use to come to terms with their situation and feelings around it. It may also be a good idea for you and your daughter to speak to the school about how they are behaving in that environment. Good luck xx

You say your other grandchildren are a delight. Would it be possible for the boys to stay with them occasionally, one at a time, so they can witness how a loving, happy family behaves towards each other and have good role models.
One piece of advice I would give is never get into an argument with a child ( it takes two to argue so don't let it be yourself who is the second person) and don't chase after them.
If they run off e.g. in a park then sit where you are and wait for them to return- take a crossword book with you, and don't engage with either of them unless they speak civilly to you. Don't take them to dangerous places like busy high streets in the first place until they behave better. So that's no tea, no tv. no treats like swimming etc. even if it takes hours, initially. When the oldest asks, 'What are you going to do about it?' Then you say, 'We will go home for tea etc. when you both do as I ask' and just sit it out and wait without further conversation. Take the control away from them and back to yourself. You have to be strong. If you are still sitting in the park in the cold in silence at midnight then that is how it will be. It will be an eye-opener to them to see how determined you are. If one conforms, get him onside to chivy the other to behave by telling them nothing is going to happen until BOTH do as you ask.
They'll soon shape up when they are hungry.They know how to behave as they are capable of doing that at school so they are saving this bad behaviour for you so you need to break this cycle otherwise nothing will improve.

Praise them when they do good things with lots of cuddles so they see the benefits of doing the right thing because, at the moment, you are rewarding their bad behaviour with your attention!

Bluegal lots of good advice and good suggestions have been made already so I will simply say You Are Doing Great! Finding somewhere safe (here for example) to vent your frustrations is a safe way to cope with theirs.

Can another family member help you care for your DM to ease your load? Is Social Services involved with providing care for her? You are no different to anyone else - you CANNOT do everything, much as you feel you want to or should. I know it is hard not to be able to make everything ok for your DD and her children BUT if you weren't around or able to help her, what then ...?

My only DGC is autistic and I work hard to help him and his parents but, in order to do so, I have to be strong in myself and have other outlets for my frustration. I've often said I wish I had a magic wand - if I did I would wave it big time to help you x

Hi Bluegal, just a quick one to say welcome to Gransnet - lots of moral support available here and good practical advice too. Sounds like you've had a lot of challenging circumstances and you are most certainly not weak - if anything you are a strong person dealing with some pretty daunting and overwhelming situations. I do hope that everyone, including you, can get some extra help and support to make family life better for all of you. A lot of good suggestions have already been made and I don't want to parrot - just to re-inforce that you do need at least a little 'me time' for yourself...back to that old adage about who cares for the carers? Sometimes you do have to put yourself and your needs first in order to be better able to cope with other problems and other people - families can be a bitch

Women's Aid and the NSPCC will be alot of help to your daughter and children. She will get support and even if the children don't engage she will get the support she needs from women's aid in the sense of counselling and so on. If there isn't a women's aid near you, it will be called IDAS. Some women's aid groups are now IDAS (which help both sexes) I had fantastic help from both there services when I fled domestic abuse. I wish you well

Hmm 8 and 4, I found that was difficult with my DGC. Situation improved when they were both school age. 4 year old boys have lots of physical energy . But look after yourself. Agree with all the other posters.
Well done for your daughter freeing herself from this man. It is not going to be easy with 3 children. And the school holidays don't help. Personally I find being calm and consistent helps, even if I am boring. Having a predictable routine with the kids is good and I work on changing the environment every 2 hours even if it's just a walk to the shops or to buy an icecream.
These children must feel very insecure. Good thing they have grandparents close.

I just want to say a massive thank you to all who have posted and to the private messages too. Every single one of you have given me the 'push' I needed to change this situation. It made me think!!

My daughter is contacting a single parent group in our area - can't just remember which one at moment - She has also spoken with her GP. I have suggested she speaks with school when it resumes too.

In meantime, I have had some heart to hearts with the children. I was too afraid to paint 'daddy' in a bad light that I didn't want to speak about him at all. After reading advice, I decided I needed to explain some of the things (like why we said NO to a fun-filled holiday in term time) I didn't go deep, just tried to put my point forward.

I have to say their response has been much better than I thought. I have relaxed a bit and its rubbing off. This week we have have had some good days out - picking blackberries, visiting farms etc. I warned them that if there was any bad behaviour, we would about turn and go home. So far, so good. I felt the love resurfacing both ways.

I do know there's a long way to go and their father won't help the situation but for now I am feeling much more positive and its all down to you guys so once again a massive THANK YOU x

Bluegal, your final post is so uplifting. The support you have had from all the wise GNers and your (and your daughter's) willingness to actually do things to change the situation has resulted in, as you so eloquently say, love resurfacing. I rarely post, but often read, and this thread has turned out to be a happy one. All the very best wishes for your continued good relationship with your grandchildren and daughter.

Bluegal and lovely, lovely GNers, looking in to give everyone a big hug. Like minesaprosecco, I read a lot on here, having lurked for a very long time now.
I am warmed by the fantastic support shown and I wish you well Bluegal. You are a fantastic and loving person and I am heartened by your courage to post on here, ( I peeked in this evening being a bit overwhelmed by my own difficult times.) What lucky grandchildren to have you about for them.
All good wishes from me and better times to come for you all...bless you everyone for all the support here. xxx