Harassment at home

ANY form of touching, sexual or otherwise is abuse if the person who is being touched does not want or invite it. Being married or in a relationship does not give anyone automatic right to touch, caress or feel a partners body. Even constant verbal demands can be construed as abusive behaviour if the other person has made it clear that they do not find it acceptable. If the person making the demands loves and respects their partner they will hopefully get the person professional help if this is needed or accept the situation if it is for medical reasons. If they don't care for their partner enough to do this they could pack their bags and ... off in my opinion.

Leaving on one side the question of dementia, lack of capacity etc...

For centuries it was believed that a woman need only give consent once, on her wedding day. It went along with the promise to 'obey', which was obligatory up to the 1920s.

This is no longer the case. If he wants sex and she doesn't, has she just submitted without telling him how she feels - lie back and think of England kind of thing?

If she has told him she doesn't want it and he insists, goes ahead, penetrates etc, then it's rape. Marital rape, yes, but rape nonetheless.

It does make me wonder what sort of a relationship they have in the first place. You don't always have to put it into words - there are clues, body language etc. A couple who have a good relationship will pick up on clues with each other.

It should work both ways. There are other things besides dementia. Diabetes resulting in male impotence, for instance. We'd both love to do it, even at an advanced age, but we can't. We express love in as many other ways as we can.

A work colleague of mine went to counselling with her husband, and the advice she was given was more or less to 'lay back and think of England'.
The counsellor said it was part of give and take in a relationship. This was recently too.

This is a delicate issue and I reeled at one comment the police get involved.
This had to be a last resort and I feel the situation would have had to have been investigated and dealt with where one person was suffering a mental illness long before it needed law intervention.

MissAdventure I couldn't disagree more with what that counsellor said.

'Give and take in a relationship' - yes, but I wouldn't construe 'give and take' as meaning 'she just has to lie down, open her legs and let him do it without her agreement'.

I've also heard of women who felt they had to 'just put up with it'. While he was banging away, she was busy working out the week's shopping list and hoping he'd get on and finish with it. I can't imagine how awful that might be, for a couple who might as well not be on the same planet as in the same bed, for all the real companionship and relationship there is between.

In an emergency situation the police could be called. Lots of police forces are trained in dementia awareness and would probably call the emergency mental health team.

No one would be tried for a crime in that situation.

There are numerous scenarios here so it would be impossible to generalise with a set response. Differing sex drives are often the cause of friction within a relationship, and if someone has mental health issues, that’s a totally different story altogether. Historically some men would have said that it’s their “ conjugal rights” regardless of the wifes feelings, however I would like to think that this mentality is long gone. However, I thought the “ casting couch” had long gone till all the recent scandals that have emerged. In a “ normal” relationship it should be about mutual respect, understanding and at times compromise, otherwise that’s when affairs happen. I have actually heard men at work say “ if I’m not getting it at home I will go elsewhere”. Every situation is totally different.

The 'conjugal rights' argument went out of the window along with the wife's promise to 'obey'.

Yes, it should be about mutual respect and understanding. And there may be times when either partner may just not feel well and may just want to go to sleep, cuddled up comfortably.

That's a chilling remark - if he's not 'getting it' at home. Not much of a relationship there, then. Horrible. Divorce papers on the way. Grrrrr.

I just love the way some, not all, just pussyfoot round the problem. From a mail standpoint no is NO end of. No matter what the circumstances, sex between two consenting adults can be a beautiful, rewarding and satisfying experience. But the watchword here is 'consenting' otherwise it's simply rape no matter how you dress it up.

My husband is keen to enjoy an active sexual life. If I find that I need them my GP gives me a prescription for a vaginal pessary such as:
What Vagifem® treats.
Vagifem® 10 mcg treats menopausal symptoms in and around the vagina.
We accomodate to each other and choose a time that suits us both.

Respecting each other's rights and needs goes two ways though doesn't? He/she respects the other's right to say No, but the other needs to have enough love to say Yes?

That's what my work colleague was told, in so many words.

It troubles me that someone could enjoy a sexual encounter with someone whom they know is simply accommodating them out of a sense of duty/kindness. That reduces human love-making to the level of animal mating.

It is impossible to expect sexual desire to always be compatible within a relationship - but that is simply a fact of life and part of the deal.

So Morgana, the person who wants to say No is actually expected to say Yes, regardless?

It's on a lower level than animal mating I'd say, Luckygirl, as I don't think an animal is able to give any thought to how willing its mating partner may be.

How many years is it acceptable for someone to say 'no'? I'm not being facetious, and I'm glad I'm single when it comes to these issues. Its a genuine question.

This is indeed a very complex issue and I think the answers depend very much on the circumstances.

If the partner who does not want sex is ill then I think the healthy spouse really has to accept that sexual relations between them may no longer be possible. Through the ages men and women have found themselves in this difficult position and have dealt with it, either by finding a lover or mistress or by getting on with something else.

If the unwilling spouse is no longer capable of deciding for themselves due to dementia then I would definitely term it sexual abuse if the other spouse forces himself upon her. (My imagination boggles at the thought of a woman actually being able to force herself upon her unwilling husband, so forgive me my use of pronouns here).

Frankly, a permanent refusal to have sex with ones spouse signals a breakdown of the marriage or a physical or mental issue such as impotence in the man or frigidity in the woman. If both parties are compos mentis it must be up to them to try and find out how their marriage can continue in these circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, please. Some couples can live in what used to be called a platonic relationship (one without sex) and be happy in it, and that is fine by me if it genuinely suits them both.

Most of us have experienced that either we didn't particularly feel "like it" when DH did, or the other way around. If this only happens occasionally when the one who didn't feel like it was tired or off colour, well and good. If it happens more often, it may well be time to sit down and try and find out what has gone wrong, or is going wrong in your marriage.

Legally and religiously one of the reasons for getting married is the expectation and desire for a regular sexual relationship with ones partner. I remember promising to love and cherish my husband in sickness and in health, and although there are definitely other ways of doing so than through sexual intercourse, I am still fairly certain that it actually comes into it, somehow and somewhere.

The pre 1969 (England) or 1970 (Scotland) divorce laws permitted a spouse to sue for restitution of marital rights before proceeding to suing for divorce, and in anyone's book that meant sexual intercourse, so there again the presumption was that sex is a normal part of marriage. Although those of us who were teenagers in the 1960s are probably rather surprised to learn that our parents and grandparents even thought about it.
So Miss Adventure, as you see, I don't think it is acceptable for someone to go on saying no, unless he or she has explained why and OFFERED TO SET THE SPOUSE THEY NO LONGER DESIRE FREE either by divorce or the old fashioned manner of "looking the other way" when their spouse finds a willing sexual partner elsewhere.

Sorry if I am offending you, ladies, but that is the risk we run with this kind of topic.

It's tricky isn't it, especially if one partner has a higher sex drive than the other? Traditionally men are supposed to be 'up for it' (I don't mean that crudely) while women are supposed to have a lower libido.
Throughout a woman's life there are all sorts of hormone driven phases which have an great effect on sex drive. If one person doesn't feel like it the other one shouldn't pester them. There's a very fine line.

I can think of many more ways of expressing love (e.g. taking the bins out, making sure the car is filled with petrol etc. etc.) than having someone bouncing up and down on me regularly. The act itself is purely a biological, animal function, and far too much is made of how important it is to make a marriage happy. Having said that, we have had lots of passion in our marriage up to middle-age, but thankfully have now settled into a 'sexless' companionship.
I would add that neither of us is incapacitated and we are in good health - we just don't need to 'do it' any longer.
There's no shame in that. I do however agree that if there is an imbalance of one keen and one not so keen then the only thing to do is to talk about it and find some sort of compromise.

Acanthus raises a good point. Have we elevated sexual acts to be the ultimate expression of love?

Forget about age, any one person insisting or coercing the other knowing full well the other person doesn't really want the attention. (for want of a better phrase), and is taking without being invited, so to speak is guilty of Harrassment and more in my book. No means No.

I am so pleased that posters are prepared to give very honest views on this subject.
For myself ,sex has always been a very important part in my very long marriage, but when that became a problem due to my H's Alzheimer's I accepted it and concentrated on other aspects of caring and companionship.
Sadly that is now proving difficult but sex no longer is a factor.

I remember as a child our neighbour sitting in our house when her husband was on nights and lay in bed during the day. His wife left the house because he spent the time waiting to grab her into the bed when she entered the bedroom to fetch her coat or similar
Expecting sex to continue into old age is not realistic. We are now living much longer and I think a lot of women have had enough ( particularly if DH has a paunch and not so sweet breath after a beer ot two.)
But a life together is till possible and is enjoyable especially if there was passion at the beginning. They have thier memories, some will be married for 60 years and can be forgiven for giving up sex which was to create children after all.