Support for all who are living with estrangement (2)

In answer to your question agnurse I believe it is better for children to live with both parents who are happy together but I fail to see how that can ever be the case when one has been bullied, as rightly observed by Namsnanny into going non contact with their own parents and in many many cases, their entire family.

You and I have always butted heads on the subject of estrangement for one reason and that is we are cut out of our son's and only GC's lives without any justification whatsoever and your H has cut his father out of his life.

I am not judging you and your H for your decision and I don't understand or like the way you so easily judge those on the receiving end of being cut out.

Why do you constantly bring to the discussion your experience of those who have had no option but to cut out parents?

How much 'say' does the partner have when they're being told it's 'us or them'. We are all too aware of how difficult vengeful mothers can be when it comes to father's trying to maintain a relationship with their children if the adult relationship has broken down.

Sadly for us, and for many, our adult son's aren't prepared to stand up for themselves, their children and their parents.
Why do you think on one occasion when we were outside our ES's house, when I was crying with my arms stretched out toward him saying "..... please" and she was inside slamming doors, that he said to me "we mustn't do this; it causes too much trouble"?

You say from your experience that "the overwhelming majority don't use their children as pawns" so, by your own admission you've experienced some that do use their children in this way.

Googoogool's GD is a pawn, our GC are pawns and the GC of every poster who has shared their sorrow on these support threads are used as pawns.

We are all too aware of your observations but they are of no use here. This is a thread to give support and telling heartbroken parents that they are no longer a priority and have been down graded to members of the extended family is not being supportive and IMO isn't correct.

I am my ES's mother, Mr. S. is ES's father. If not for us he wouldn't exist and neither would his children. If not for us he wouldn't have once been the wonderful young man that she set her sights on and wanted to marry.

We are his parents agnurse and despite the hell he's put us through for more than 5 years and no doubt will continue to do so for the rest of our lives, we love him, we always will and he'll never get that true example of unconditional love from his wife, and if he's as unfortunate as us when his C become adults, from them either.

And one more thing agnurse if this is the way that our AC regard us their parents, as second class disposable citizens, I bet they'll be singing a different tune if the day ever comes that they are cut out of their children's and GC's lives.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I'm wondering what your objective here is?

Your language is very pejorative (mummy and daddy?), and looks as if you want to engage in an argument.

You say 'in some cases...' that is a conclusion drawn from what basis?
The use of 'some' is meant to minimalize the amount of families who do get on with each other.
The reason for this is to bolster your perspective, which doesn't seem to be very rational. Why would you do this?

Can I say, blaming divorce on GPs is a bit extreme! Unless you come from a strict religious or cultural background that I don't understand, the western world is experiencing around 50% divorce rate.
I could name plenty of stresses that people are under for this, and GPS would be way down the list!

I think one has to be very careful when throwing pseudo facts around.

In your second paragraph you go on to ask 'what is more important'..... the choice being weighted heavily on one side.
It isn't possible to 'choose' between 'knowing GP' or children having a happy family life with mum and dad!

Don't forget giving birth does not mean you will automatically become good parent.
Anymore than getting married makes one a perfect partner.

Thinking about your assertion that the spouse automatically and must always be the priority of the other to ensure a happy marriage and family, may seem to be the 'best' arrangement to you.
If you follow that argument to its conclusion and you might feel differently.

Example: Your spouse insists your children are not his and to make him happy, he begs you to kill them and have new children with him?
You who always wants him to be happy must decide to do as he asks or think independently and save both him and the children.

One last observation, as for all the gobbledegook about partners rights, (to expect their other half to uphold their pov whatever and whenever).
What your suggesting is in effect relinquishing ones freedom of thought to independently come to a decision about anything, including the children, in favour of the most forceful partners opinion.
That is actually bullying!

Thank you!

Smileless

Once your AC marry, by definition you as the parent become extended family. You cannot be the top priority in your AC's life. That must go to their spouse and children.

Sadly I have seen couples get divorced because one spouse was too married to mummy and daddy to be married to their spouse. They were putting mummy and daddy ahead of their spouse's needs and desires. Let me ask you something candidly here. I'm not asking to be snarky, I would like an honest answer. Which do you think is more important for children: to know their grandparents or to live in a family where the parents are happy and stay together? Let's assume that in some cases these are mutually exclusive things as they can be. At the very least, if you are pushing the issue, you are potentially creating an unhappy environment at home.

The reality is that your GC are half your AC and half their partner. By saying that your AC's partner doesn't have the right to keep you "away" from your GC, you are saying that you effectively know better than they do what is in the best interests of their children. You're saying that their partner gets no say, because your AC has the responsibility of ensuring you see your GC and that trumps any and all considerations of the other parent.

I have been in contact with many EC. The overwhelming majority don't use their children as pawns. They don't estrange to hurt people. It's not an easy process for them. They seek help because they want to find a way to deal with unreasonable behaviour. Estrangement is the last resort. They truly believe it is in the best interests of their children not to see their GPs because the GPs behaviour has become intolerable.

I am not saying this is true in every estrangement. But IME this is what I have observed.

I'm relieved GoogoogoolI didn't want to post out of turn or be over critical of your son but we know from our DS that this is what happened with our ES.

The old 'it's us or them' weapon, it's so wrong on every level and after more than 5 years of posting here on GN about estrangement, it never ceases to shock and upset me how many, usually those who aren't estranged, who come out with the same rubbish about an AS 'cleaving to his wife', how parents become second class citizens, of less importance and disposable items at the whim of those they marry or choose as their life partners.

Your plan is the right one and TBH the only option that you have. As I've previously posted, as long as there is some contact between you and your son, there is some hope.

I'm keeping everything crossed for you.

Smileless 2012 you have given me such a boost. Thank you. I really didn't want to say those words but think that is exactly what is happening. You have assessed my situation so well. I have said to him, is this really what is best for gd and of course he couldn't answer. I can't be sure and it wouldn't be fair to ask him but I think the gauntlet is basically saying you are either supporting her (me) or supporting me (dil). He has tentatively hinted at such and I just responded by saying I knew he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. My plan at the moment is to try and keep communication open between him and us, ask how gd is getting on now and then and just don't put pressure on as I fear it could backfire.

Putting your wife and child first agnurse doesn't mean that a husband should condone and enable unreasonable behviour from his wife, or a wife should do so from her husband.

As for putting his child first, he isn't doing so is he as long as he goes along with his wife's determination to keep the child from her grand mother.

IMO this is why we are seeing just here on GN, so many heartbreaking accounts of estrangement. It isn't a question of who is more important; a husband or wife, a mother or father or a child they are all of equal importance or at least they should be.

Is this where a lot of these estrangements are coming from? It's me and the children or your relationship with your parents and their relationship with our children?

I agree that Googoogool needs to be patient. She needs to wait and hope that her son realises that it is wrong of him for his parents to be denied him and their GC because his wife has laid down the gauntlet by saying she will never forgive her for the unfortunate upset that occurred.

It's emotional blackmail, pure and simple.

I agree about priorities, Agnurse. I also agree that "the ball in in their court".

I commend Googoogool's patience.

Alexa

They have a child together. By definition, the welfare of that child must come first. In the vast majority of cases, it's in the children's best interest for the parents to stay together. This means that the son needs to put his wife and child first. When adult children marry, their parents become extended family. This doesn't mean they're not important anymore, but their needs and desires must take a backseat.

I would recommend that Googoogool simply be patient. This way the ball is in their court. They can choose to engage with her when they feel ready.

NanaWilson…..

Well done for picking up the pieces of this little girls life.
I admire you for doing your best.

Hope things calm down soon

Good luck

Welcome Googoogool I'm glad you've come on to this thread. I've seen your post on the thread you started and what I'm going to post here will be posted on that thread as well.

'I will never forgive her' the uncompromising and unforgiving words from your d.i.l.. It never ceases to sadden and shock me how easily some, of our AC's generation can so easily discard their own parents and/or their parents in law.

One of the lessons we learn as we grow up out of childhood, a fact of life, is that our parents, just like us are not perfect or invincible. Just as we do, they'll have moments or periods in life when they need that little extra care, support and love.

I agree that your son should support his wife. Be understanding that although you've aplogised her anger hasn't sufficiently subsided that she wants to see you at the moment, but I don't agree that he should be supporting her in withholding your GC.

All too often our GC are used as pawns in this cruel and unnecessary game of estrangement. Their withdrawal is used as a weapon to inflict pain and suffering with no thought given to their emotional welfare, especially when the child in question has already developed a relationship with their GP's.

It is wrong for a parent to try and come between their AC and partner and it is just as wrong for a partner, to come between their partner and his/her parents.

If your d.i.l. doesn't want to see you at this time, there's no reason why your son can't and shouldn't remain in contact with you and ensure that contact remains between you and your GC.

As long as there is some contact between you and your son, not all is lost. I hope and pray that this continues and that at some point your son understands that he deosn't have to cease contact with you and disallow your relationship with your GD in order to support his wife.

Googoogool, you seem level-headed, and that must be the best personality for dealing with estrangement. It's a horrid word which I myself had to face up to.

May I be blunt and say that "his relationship" would seem to be in the driving seat? That being the case, is your best strategy to continue what you are doing while, if at all possible, showing "his relationship" and himself that you are happy to take a back seat?

I am puzzling how you could actively do so. Certainly your patience is to your advantage. Is there anything you could actively do for them that would tempt the relationship to favour you?

Thanks Alexa I have considered that. Unfortunately dil would never consider that. I get the feeling you are either out or your in. My son would feel most uncomfortable about it and may be seen as trying to help me which could put his relationship in difficulties. I presently feel I have to back off, try to have some sort of relationship, if somewhat stiff, with him and hope that something will give in her thinking.

Googoogool, is there a third party, perhaps a minister of religion, who could and would mediate?

Hello to all. I was directed to this thread by another member. Guess I have made my way to the GN site and this thread by circumstances that we all find ourselves in. Estranged seems such a frightening word, so final. Don't want to accept it yet but maybe I'm just sticking my head in the sand. Don't want to go into my circumstances again (it's already on my only post) but hopefully it is suffice to say I don't get to see my beloved little gd who lives only a few minutes away. I hope some day my son will be able to let me have some contact. They say never give up hope. Nice to see you all chatting about what is going on in your lives. There are times when life is fine and then something is said or triggered and wham.

lovely!

Rhinestone, what wonderful picture!
They look perfect.
Most people would envy your yard, me included.
It’s things like this give us all a boost.
Thank you for sharing.
No one can Trump that!

Rhinestone

So gorgeous! We live in Canada but also live in an area where there is a lot of wildlife. Never had any come in the yard (we live in a small town) but have seen moose and deer along the highway.

Oh that's beautiful Rhinestone. I know you have Trump for president but there are clearly some advantages to living in the States.

Really?......where do you live ?

Before I post today I saw this in my yard. It made me smile and I hope you too.

Snap Magicma.....same here. Hardly see my older son's babies, maybe once every few weeks....see younger son's toddler a couple of times a week. Such a joy....that lady doesn't what an utter joy it is to spend time with these angels ..I could spend all day every day with them, well, almost ?

I was just reading an article on FB about a lady who was about to be a grandma wondering if she wanted her time to be taken up with babysitting. OMG. If I could only tell her what a joy her tinies will be, and to embrace the chance if she gets it.
I haven't seen my son's little girl now for a couple of weeks - they only live 10 mins away from us - and I know it is pointless to msg or call as they rarely reply or respond. I have to immerse myself in my daughter's two babes. I could see them every day if I wanted to, she loves it and they do too.
But it doesn't take the pain of loss away. . . . .

Thanks smileless2012. We had holiday planned, and was hoping her mummy would be fully better, but think she would like the break, and GD would have a good time. We have done heaps for son, wife and other grandchildren, so not sure what resentment was about.