Support for all who are living with estrangement (2)

Oh dear Meercat you have my sympathy, what time would you normally get up? I'm missing my regular not getting out of bed until 7.30 am at the very earliest; usually 8.00 am.

That did seem to be an important part of the discussion Meercat that GC are denied GP's because their parents have fallen out with them. Quite a lot of concern was expressed about the complex and expensive legal process that has to be gone through and ways of making this less stressful, less complex and less expensive for all concerned.

Hopefully, in the discussions about possible legislation to ensure that children can keep contact with their grandparents and other family members following divorce or separation, it will also become clear that maintaining access for children is also important when the parents have fallen out with the grandparents or even just decided that they don't want them in their lives.

At the very least having that right for children established might make it necessary for parents to spell out exactly why they think continued access is inappropriate.

Smileless Just now I am sharing your sleepless nights and early starts. We have our daughter's dog staying with us while they have some building work done. She isn't a puppy but our son-in-law usually gets up very early so their dog is used to getting up early too. She clearly thinks our usual 7 am start is quite unreasonable!!

Morning ladies, another beautiful day here is under way. We had a lovely relaxing day yesterday, soaking up the on our roof terrace.

It was a long day as our puppy woke at 5.00am. This morning it was 3.45 so I took her out so she could go to the loo and she went back down straight away only to wake at 4.45amso I told her 'no' a couple of times and bless her little heart she was fine until 7.45am.

Spring's a good time to rethink our perspective Rhinestone. I'm sorry your son didn't call you back. That's the problem with trying to make contact, when they don't respond or do so with anger, bitterness and resentment it re opens the wound.

It does look as if you're right about your D deliberately making it impossible for you to respond MesMopTop. IMO it questions her belief that what she's saying and doing is right. I feel the same way about our ES although there's no contact there at all. In the beginning of our estrangement when challenged regarding the false allegations he was making, he just went quiet; had no reply.

We continue to send Birthday and Christmas cards to our GC. Nothing has been said about this, presumably they go straight in the bin, and we'll continue to do this for as long as we know where they live, even if at some point in the future their parents to object.

Well apparently our govt DOES think grandparents are entitled to see their grandchildren, with this mornings announcement that will bring out legislation regarding grandparents being entitled to see their grandchildren even after parental divorce or separation.

Sadly this misses out grandparents who are prevented from seeing their grandchildren just because their AC say it is so.

Fingers crossed.

MesMopTop, I identify with how you are feeling. You love and want your daughter in your life but she doesn't feel the same. I am not what my d wants or needs as you put it, when I truly realised that, I knew whatever I did or didn't do she wouldn't want me. As hard as it is, try to accept and fill your life with things you enjoy.?

That's unfortunate. I'm sorry.

It does sound as if you still have some contact with her. It might be best to avoid discussing things that will set her off. Keep it to basic pleasantries. Don't bring up the past and don't ask for her address.

It sounds as if you're taking the right approach - not forcing her to do more than she's comfortable doing. If you show that you respect her boundaries she may come around in time. At the very least you're giving her space and that's good.

Gg65, we’ve been estranged for many years, with the odd message here and there. I offered to go to counselling when she said she’d been to counselling but she did not think this would be helpful. I continued to apologise for how she felt but there were some things that I genuinely was not responsible for. It was things that she had initiated and done as an adult. Too outing to say what these were.,However, they were things that would be thought of as being a good thing and she was supported in her decisions. However, when it didn’t go as planned, it became my fault. Other things were fabricated or facts completely twisted, despite my showing her the legal proof when she first questioned matters. She just will not have it, it is as she says it is. She is not open to any discussion. I can only message her. She has cut off her entire family. She did come back for a very brief time several years ago, and appeared happy to be back but again, disappeared without warning. She has been given financial assistance throughout but this has now stopped. Perhaps we aren’t what she wants or needs and I’ve just got to accept that. She’s told me straight that I’m being inappropriate in loving her, wanting the best for her and wanting to have some kind of relationship with her. I can’t have her postal address as it’s not appropriate for me to send cards or gifts. She has told me that if i cannot discuss anything. If I try, she will just cut me off forever. I did say that I did not agree with some of what she said as it was so factually wrong and incorrect. To be honest, I’m thinking that perhaps she has deliberately made it impossible for me not to respond and now she will feel she is absolutely justified in cutting me off. I think I am now looking at living the rest of my days without my beautiful daughter. We were so close, she was always so bright, loving, intelligent and amazing. She had a wonderful future ahead of her and I tried to encourage her in everything she did, to never be afraid to try new things. Well, I’m more than sure she will have an amazing life. I’m just so very sad that I won’t ever get to be even a tiny part of it.

Dontaskme

Smileless2020 I second your comments to agnurse. This thread is for support - if you can't be supportive then kindly don't comment, go and vent your spleen elsewhere.

Oh well done agnurse, we have a first time poster on this thread which is for support, clearly in a state of distress, being encouraged to post again so we know she's OK and you put that on.

That is not how we do things on this thread. We may say in one form or another 'you poor thing, but we do not tell anyone that they have a right to be entitled. If you don't agree and/or approve of the support that is offered here that is your prerogative but perhaps you should find a more appropriate thread to express your insensitivity.

I'm pleased that your parents have managed to move on with their lives having been cut out by your sister but if they were struggling, I wonder how you would feel if they posted on a support thread for those living with estrangement and received the response that you've given to Rosa.

You haven't been cut out by your own child, you have absolutely no idea what it is like, even though this has happened to your parents you don't have personal experience of it so don't know what it's like.

You have no right and certainly aren't qualified to determine any ones state of mental health.

IrishRose

I meant "you" in the general sense.

The reality is that none of us get to dictate whether or not another adult has a relationship with us. And if another adult decides not to have a relationship, then it's not healthy to sit around and obsess about it.

As far as taking children to see a disabled grandparent, I'm not against children seeing their grandparents. Not at all. What I object to is cases where the grandparent is toxic but the parents are told "you have to see your parent, one of the few joys they get is to see their grandchildren and you can't take that away from them".

Does estrangement hurt? Absolutely. In fact it hurts the estranged children too. Estranged children grieve the fact that they didn't get the kind of parents they should have had (assuming the parents were toxic). I know this because I've seen it and read about it from the estranged children. While support is helpful, sitting around obsessing over it certainly isn't healthy.

Imagine if someone went through a divorce or death of a loved one. Would you be encouraging them to obsess about it for years afterward? Of course not. Yes, there is grief work to do, but then you learn to accept your new reality and move on. If people can't do that we term it "complicated grieving" and get them some help.

@MesMopTop, how long have you been estranged from your daughter? Whilst you disagree with some of the points she raised, a child's perception of events can be very different to that of an adult. Do you have an email address for your daughter? Do you think she would be open to counselling? I think the fact that you can admit to and are willing to apologise for some of the upset she feels could be the first step in mending the relationship.

@Rhinestone, what caused your son to yell at and call his sister names in front of her children? Sorry, I'm new to this site and not familiar with your story.

On another note, I think the saying is to honour thy father and mother. I don't think grandparents are included in that. Regardless, I don't think it is right to teach children to honour anyone. No one should be given automatic glory because of their position in the family. Yes, children should be taught to respect adults, but once those children become adults themselves the concept of respecting their elders becomes moot. Adult children are your peers and should be treated as such. Respect should be given both ways, not blindly given to those who have been around longer than you. Age does not denote character.

Hello all- It’s spring and I’m trying to have a better attitude about everything. I called my ES after eight months and I never received a call back. Feeling kind of down as our Mothets Day is next weekend and there will be no call or card. I still cannot get over the fact that he was wrong in yelling at his sister and calling her names in front of her children but he is mad at us for telling him he was wrong.
AgnurseWhat is wrong with children taking the grandchildren over to see their grandparent if they are disabled or ill or for just no reason other then they are the grandparent? I don’t understand so please enlighten me. Is every child so fragile that they can’t be taught to honor their parents and grand parents? That’s the problem as I see it. I taught my children to respect and honor their elders but yet something happened between their leaving the nest and now. Was it the media? The films? Their friends? What happened to change what they were taught? My stepdaughter just told my DH that she didn’t call him on his birthday because she doesn’t like talking on the phone . She did text him though. Well I didn’t like going to work somedays but did it. Are there no expectations anymore? Are there no feelings of giving up how you feel about talking on the phone to call your father for three minutes? I don’t get it .

Rosa, how are you ? Please reply so we know you're ok xx

“Frankly, if you believe that your AC are such cruel and unreasonable people because they've estranged themselves, I have to question why you would want to renew the relationship in the first place. Why would you want to be around someone who behaves that way? If you truly feel that way I would be saying "Good riddance!" and moving on. Fixating on what you can't have isn't helpful.”

Perhaps if you read the posts agnurse instead of constantly spreading your own opinions, you would see that I am not estranged from my sons. However what you have written above confirms that you appear to be inflexible and lacking in compassion.

I was referring solely to this thread....a support thread for anyone in distress. There are numerous other threads for you to hijack. It is not for you to dismiss someone so damaged, by estrangement, that they are considering suicide. At that point your ”pull yourself together” attitude is not only patronising, cruel but actually downright dangerous.

I am a psychotherapist of many years standing. I do not judge, patronise or give opinions. I listen, I feel, and I help. In human relationships there is no one size fits all. There are as many different stories as there are people.

Think I’m beginning to understand what IrishTose is saying. I haven’t seen my ED for a long time and I have had only a handful of messages. I don’t know where she even lives. I asked for, and was given, a list of what I had done that upset her. Some I genuinely put my hand up to and apologised for, unreservedly. Some things though were completely fabricated or factually incorrect. She said that because this was what she believed it was not up for discussion and that if I did try discuss them she would cut contact for ever. I don’t have problems admitting my faults but when she says things that are nowhere even near the truth I just cannot apologise for things that just didn’t happen. I did try explain the facts, some of which I told her when she was younger and showed her the proof but she still continues to deny the truth. I’m just so at s loss. I am now thinking that perhaps I have got to just stop apologising for things I didn’t do. I’ve told her I love her and will always be here if she needs me but even saying this was not appropriate in her mind. She’s all the woman she’s going to be and if she really doesn’t want to be a part of her family, and my life, then I feel I have just got to accept her choice. I will carry on and live my life but there will always be a part of me that will always love and miss her. Good to see some of the other ladies back on here. Did pop over yo the other thread but I didn’t feel able to post on it at the moment as apologies bit too much for me st the mo. Wishing you all well ?

IrishRose

The reason I post what I do is that I don't think it's helpful to just pat people on the back and say, "Oh, you poor thing, they're being completely unreasonable and you have every right to think you're entitled to a relationship and it's completely understandable if you fall into a severe depression because they're totally responsible for your happiness and if a person commits suicide because of estrangement it's as if their AC held the gun to the parent's head." That's not helpful or supportive.

Frankly, if you believe that your AC are such cruel and unreasonable people because they've estranged themselves, I have to question why you would want to renew the relationship in the first place. Why would you want to be around someone who behaves that way? If you truly feel that way I would be saying "Good riddance!" and moving on. Fixating on what you can't have isn't helpful.

agnurse you appear to have misread the title of this thread. It is purely to support anyone affected by estrangement, which you apparently are not. Your post is the complete opposite of support. In fact you rather patronisingly, even cruelly, dismiss someone in very obvious distress. That is not how this particular thread works.

Frankly, if someone is SO upset by estrangement that it leads them to take their own life, that suggests to me that this person had some fairly serious mental health issues.

Your AC and GC cannot be your only reason for living. They're not some kind of emotional bandage. This is why I always get squirmy when I hear "oh, I've recently lost my husband/brother/insert relation here, I need to see my GC to help me get over it" or "your mother is disabled, she gets so little joy in her life, you need to bring your kids to see her". That's way too much responsibility to put on another person. Think of it this way: at some point, you may outlive your spouse, especially if you're a woman. Your spouse would likely not expect you to die of grief if they passed. If your spouse passed young and you had a young family, of course they would expect that you would carry on for the sake of the children. So it is with adult children. They have their own lives. It's not reasonable to expect that they should just drop everything to be at your beck and call. If they cut you out, yes, you will grieve, but at some point you need to get beyond it. My sister and BIL have sadly CO my parents. I don't agree with it. Neither do my parents. But my parents don't sit around bemoaning this fact. They keep busy with other things. I'm certain it would never occur to them to attempt suicide over it.

Rosa, I can understand your feelings, it must seem the end of the world, you did what you did because you were desperate. Please Rosa, before you even think of any contact with your children, start to love yourself, think of all you did with the best intentions. Make a good life for yourself. One day one or the other of your children will make contact, but you need to have your life sorted so you can meet them on solid ground. This time of your life is about you, bad things happen to good people all the time, it is a cliche I know, but life is precious and none of us know what is round the corner or in store for us, but you must stop dwelling on your perceived failings and concentrate on the positive, you can do it.?

PS as said by the lady who established the Britsol support group for estranged P's and GP's; it's "an acid feed of alienation".

Rosa I echo crazy's post, please post again so we know you're OK. We have all experienced that feeling of utter desperation, of wondering what life can possibly have to offer when we've lost our child, not through bereavement but because they don't want us anymore.

You will find love and understanding here Rosa. It's what this thread is for.

Thanks Minty I've just watched it. I think I must have clicked on the wrong section. Wasn't it wonderful to learn
that the founder of the Bristol support group will be meeting her 17 year old GD this weekend, a young lady she hasn't seen since she was 10.

Wasn't it awful to hear that 3 members from that group committed suicide and 7 from another support group.

The increasing trend of AC who've cut out their parents and justify their actions as labeling them as narcissist is disturbing and fly's in the face of reason, when you consider the attributes that label implies.

P's and GP's unable to live with their loss ending their lives.

Norah "the younger years are rather tedious and boring".
What wouldn't we give to experience that tedium and boring and be a part of our GC's lives.

Dear Rosa
Please, please don't do anything like that (OD) .....we all feel desperate at times...once, years ago, I ran the Samaritans , when my husband was having an affair...he left me anyway and married the woman..
Life is hard Rosa....my relationship with one son and daughter in law is hanging by a thread, but I carry on, I put up with all daughterinlaw' snide remarks. I am too scared to retaliate in case I never my son and gc again.
You are never alone Rosa. Why don't you join a social group. And besides, we are all here. See your GP, as it looks like you are really depressed.
Please reply, so we know you are ok.

Smileless, no worries, the younger years are rather tedious and boring, you would be to the good bits.