Kept from grands I need advice

Agnurse , I appreciate your insistence on facts.
"1. She said she was going to be giving her opinions regardless of how they felt about them because that's "just the way she is".

2. She was invited over once or twice a month. She got upset because they told her to call first, and when she called and they were busy, she took it upon herself to show up unannounced.

3. She insisted she has rights to the grandchildren.

4. She was given a "do not contact" letter, yet persists in contacting them despite their expressed wishes."

My responses:
1. She's undiplomatic.

2.She cannot understand how she can be unwelcome and is very unhappy because she's unwelcome. She is either a) slow learner or b)her relatives are callous, or c) her relatives have insufficient patience to explain to her so she can understand. Complete ostracism is unjustified in the circumstances.

3. She needs to know the law whatever that is.

4. That 'do not contact' letter makes my blood run cold. How cruel! Which relative was responsible for that monstrosity?
This is an old lady who wants something simple; to be with her grandkids. I wonder if the relatives have given her a list of their requirements e.g. "don't talk about your religion to the children." Or whatever else that would annoy them . So they can all compromise. These relatives have the whip hand socially and it's up to them to be merciful.

Oh and my children are all grown now and I keep to my own advice and it seems to work as I get lots of invites and am often asked for advice!

I count myself very lucky in that I had a close relationship with my mum and mother in law. My mother in law never interfered, gave advice when asked and called before visiting. She was always welcome in my house as I knew she was never going to thrust her advice, religion or opinions down my throat even though I’m sure, especially with my first child, there may have been times she was itching to. My children benefitted hugely from having her around and I believe the more people children have in their lives the better. Sadly she passed away when they were still small and I still miss her to this day. I know how she would have enjoyed seeing them grow into adults. I think the message is that in laws and parents of adults making their own way in the world should step back, wait to be asked and allow their offspring to make their own way. If advice is wanted it will be asked for. I also believe that ac should never co any family members unless they can, hand on heart, have a very good reason to do so as you are denying your children of the joys of having loving grandparents.

Loving someone means wanting the best for them.
Your idea of 'best' might not be the same as theirs, so if they tell you of changes they'd like you to make eg arrange visit times, don't give opinions on their parenting, then it would be loving behaviour to go along with making those changes.
('you' in this post meaning anyone)

I didn't mean yogagirl. Sorry if it sounded like that.
I meant the OP and her behaviour.

Yogagirl is no more opinionated than any other poster on GN FarNorth. We all have our opinions and should be able to express them without being insulted by another poster.

Her post is spot on. We know the reasons why the OP has been CO, some of us don't agree that the reasons justify this cruel and hurtful behaviour and not all who feel this way, are themselves estranged.

You have no idea how traumatic it is to receive a 'no contact' letter, I know because we've had one. Be thankful you haven't FarNorth. I sincerely hope you never do, but if that were to happen I hope no one accuses you of being an "over-bearing mother/mother-in law

Your opinionated, over-bearing mother/mother-in-law, yogagirl.

Nurse It's called love & compassion, love for your mother, love for your children's grandmother, the mother of your husband, that love them all so. It's called having a heart, it's called 'doing the right thing' not just to your fellow human being, but to your loving mother/mother-in-law!

If you read the history she was not ostracized because of the Bible verses.

1. She said she was going to be giving her opinions regardless of how they felt about them because that's "just the way she is".

2. She was invited over once or twice a month. She got upset because they told her to call first, and when she called and they were busy, she took it upon herself to show up unannounced.

3. She insisted she has rights to the grandchildren.

4. She was given a "do not contact" letter, yet persists in contacting them despite their expressed wishes.

Can you see why she has been cut off? Please explain to me why people should be required to spend time with someone who shows up unannounced, insists she has rights to their minor children, insists on giving her opinion when she has been told it's unwanted, and persists in contacting them despite having been given a no contact letter. She doesn't respect their boundaries and insists that she should not have to do so because "that's just the way she is". Prior to the cut off she had more contact with her grandchildren than many parents do, yet she decided on her own that that wasn't enough for her.

Madgran

How can anyone of the younger generations take seriously an old lady who is religious in that particular way? Cannot they accept that she is eccentric but lovable despite the Bible quotes? The Bible quoting may be boring but it's not a good excuse to ostracise the old lady for goodness sake.

Smileless thankyou !

Exactly.
Quotes for any situation which can be adapted to any situation.
She can't throw them about if they apply to her too.

Which is just as applicable to the OP's son and his wife as it is to her, perhaps more so as they are the ones who have cut her out.

'I continue to send bible verses in the mail to their home. God does not like unforgiving people and they are turning away from him in excluding me.'

OP also said she didn't expect the verses to heal the rift just to remind them they are forsaking god.

She's not swapping bible verses with her son she's blackmailing him with them.
IMO you dont get to be rude, selfish, judmental, hurtful and disrespectful to anyone then use your religion, which you share, to blame them for not tolerating it.

I'm sure the bible says lots of inspirational quotes fit for every occasion. I've just googled one.

'Proverbs 11:17 Your kindness will reward you, but your cruelty will destroy you.'

"Without their input we don't know if that is the case" No, cornishclio we don't know if that is the case, that's the point surely. IMO it's understandable for the OP to think her S and d.i.l. are bad people for cutting her out; I think our ES and his wife are people for doing the same thing to us.

Yet, without their input you "hazzard a guess" that she's used Bible verses to emotionally blackmail them, why? There's nothing to suggest this is the case from her posts.

We occasionally exchange Bible verses with our DS to give one another support. This isn't strange IMO in the case of the OP when her S has previously asked her to pray for him and his family. It suggests to me that they have talked openly about their faith and has been something that they've shared.

They sent her a "do not contact letter", have you any idea what it's like to receive something like that from your own child? We received ours over 5 years ago. "You are no longer a part of mine and ..... lives and are to stay away".

I can quote it exactly because I will never forget what he wrote and will never forget the pain that reading it caused us.

MadgranI posted earlier that I could see why problems have developed between the OP, her S and his family which is why things need to be discussed and solutions need to be found. When an AC refuses to entertain counselling, as with the OP's son, it's pretty obvious that there's no desire to find a solution.

It must be very difficult and painful for you to live with the fear of being CO. No parent, GP or AC should have to live with that.

Smileless: "When I read that there are those who aren't surprised that someone can be cut out for the reasons given by the OP, I'm not surprised that sadly, there are so many P's and GP's in the same nightmare situation."

Although I would never advocate CO and am shocked by what appears to be an increasing trend, I can see that the behaviours described by the OP might well be experienced by the Son/DIL/Grandchildren in a way that is intolerable of even damaging! The OP does seem to be struggling to understand that her opinion/advice does not have to be taken, that her way of doing things with a child (which may include food/sleeping/attitudes/moral guidance for instance|) may not be what the parents want for their child, that her presence if too frequent (and if she is quite an overbearing person maybe??) might impact too much or be damaging to the family life that they want!! As someone who treads on eggshells, and fears CO, I am acutely conscious of the need to stick to the "rules" whatever ones own private views are, and I do!!
As I said previously, on the face of it, this situation seems so awful, painful and unfair, but the OPs comments have made me wonder about how all this has been experienced by her son and family - not that I agree with CO, without apparent explanation because I don't and never will.

Smileless2012

I think that sending bible verses to your children is a strange thing to do and would never do it. Neither would anyone else I know, even those who are religious. Religion IMHO should be a personal and private thing and not something which is effectively forced down peoples throats which she is doing as her son and DIL asked her not to contact them. From the sound of her posts she considers her son and daughter in law to be bad people for cutting her out, without their input we don't know if this is the case. I would hazard a guess the bible verses are used to emotionally blackmail them into letting her see them again.

There is obviously a huge backstory here but the OP gives the impression that she feels she is entitled to contact, entitled to give advice, even if unwanted and unasked for, and to visit as and when she wishes. I think this is selfish behaviour and does not afford her son and DIL the privacy they need within their own family. She actually was visiting quite a few times and assumed as she was happy to let her parents visit whenever they wanted that her son and his wife would be the same as her. Times change though and what happened in previous generations is not the same as now. Young couples work and dads are more involved in their children's lives these days. The role of a matriarch in todays society is quite outdated I think.

I think in those sorts of situations the OPs family should be able to say they are not comfortable with the OP being around her family given she does not get on with the DIL and I got the impression she was actually nasty to the DIL in person not just on a forum. She obviously does not like her, whether it is justified or not who knows.

Some mothers and GM deserve to be cut out of their childrens lives. They are not all nice people. I think it is up to all of us, both children and parents to look at how our behaviour and actions impact on the lives of people around us and some people just seem to think they can do and say as they like and family will accept it.

I do not doubt that the OP loves her son and GC but she has a badly misguided way of showing it. I think if she takes a step back and really apologises to her DIL and respects their wishes for a while to keep her distance hopefully they may reconsider. In the meantime she should find other outlets for her time.

But we're not talking about someone making frequent visits are we, we're talking about a mother and a GM being cut out. And, we're not talking about someone only being allowed infrequent visits, we're talking about a M and GM whose been cut out.

When I read that there are those who aren't surprised that someone can be cut out for the reasons given by the OP, I'm not surprised that sadly, there are so many P's and GP's in the same nightmare situation.

She wasn't cut out just because of the Bible verses. By her own admission she went to their home unannounced, said she would not stop giving unsolicited advice, looked up their address when they didn't give it to her, and has continued to send messages after they have told her they don't want further contact. Prior to this she already had more contact than many people get. Frankly it does not surprise me that she was cut off. It appears that she does not seem to recognize that her son and DIL are adults and they have their own boundaries - you get to see the kids a couple of times a month, call before you come over, don't give unsolicited advice. None of those boundaries are unreasonable. I've been a nurse for 12 years. Let's say I was hired on a unit as a new staff member and let's say the head nurse on the unit had less experience than I did. If I told the head nurse that I would be giving her advice on how to do her job because I had more experience than she did, and I didn't intend to stop because that's just the way I am, I wouldn't last long at that job. Just because she thinks she is helping doesn't mean it is help. If her family members don't want it it's not help anymore. How would you feel if someone rearranged your kitchen because it made more sense to them and insisted that every time they came over they would rearrange your kitchen because that's just the way they are? Would you be letting that person visit frequently?

When did the OP state that the Bible verses she sent were to "effectively accuse them of being bad people" Cornishclio? And why assume that by sending verses she's pushing religion down their throats?

I wouldn't cut a parent, p.i.l. or GP out of mine and my children's lives for reasons such as these and would have doubts about anyone would do such a cruel thing for no good reason.

I assume from your postcornishclio that if you'd given un-solicited advice to your AC and partner regarding their children, made comments about your AC's partners' mental health on a forum under a name which is not your own, and which your AC and their partner may be totally unaware of, and sent Bible verses to your AC who has previously asked you to pray for them and their family, you'd accept without question being cut out.

As a grandmother myself (luckily not estranged) I actually can see from what you have written why your son and DIL have gone NC with you. I am not sure if you mean to come across this way but there is a lot of talk in how you are going to offer advice (even unsolicited) and making comments about your DIL regarding her mental health. I would have to say I would think long and hard about you having contact with my children if I were your DIL or son too.

You have no automatic rights as a grandparent and things are done so differently now that I think it is wise to take a step back and not advise unless asked for it or certainly not proffer it with the assumption your advice will be taken. I have just found it best to offer help, be constructive with advice (non critical) and respect their own privacy as a new family.

Regarding the bible verses, that would send me into a flaming rage so I am glad others have said the same. I am not religious and think people who push religion down your throat are to be avoided at all costs. Even practising Christians I think would be enraged to be sent verses effectively accusing them of being bad people. What were you hoping to achieve by that?

Nurse I think the OP, probably didn't paint the picture as it was, all round. It's very hard to do this and on here it's taken me 5yrs to paint the whole picture, yet still I find myself giving more of the puzzle. We estranged grandmothers understand between the lines, understand the unwritten word of a grieving grandmother, we understand the all consuming pain & we understand it's not possible to paint the picture in it's entirety, but we see the picture

Ditto your first half of post 11.46 *Smileless, and without doubt it's a cruel game played by my s.i.l, but he has not only damaged us, he has also damaged both children, especially my GD that is not his child.

Maggiemay so sorry you never knew your maternal GP & family. My s.i.l without doubt would have destroyed all photos of us. When he 'got rid' of my DD, he also got rid of all the pictures in the house of her, her with the children, or with him & the children, all gone! She pointed this out to me, in the few weeks of that ticking clock of my 'cut out', I, to this day, don't know what happened to them, don't know if the were destroyed permanently or put back from their hidden place. So if he had got his way, the children wouldn't even have a picture of their mother!!

When we went to court for my visitation rights, I took with me pictures of my GD's birth in an envelope to hand to my D, but she refused them! . So my GD has no record of her birth or early years