Kept from grands I need advice

You wouldn't find it Norah as it isn't noted by Immagramma which is why I put the word in inverted commas and not quotation marks. It is my view on the way she's being treated as with so many EP's and EGP's they are being punished even though for some they don't know what crimes they've committed and for many, the punishment far out ways the crime.

I did not find "punishment" Smileless, where is that noted to by Immagramma?

"Short of abuse or violence" KnickerKnit no, nothing that justifies the OP or any other P and GP being CO. If you've been following the entire thread, you would have seen my initial post in which I stated that I understood why her behaviour has caused problems with her son and d.i.l.

I have been a GN for more than 5 years and have lost count of the number of posts I've made on estrangement and not once, have I ever said that a P or GP "deserves a relationship with (their) GC no matter what, just by virtue of their biological ties"

Perhaps you didn't read the OP's subsequent post where she said she'd been asked to stay away for 2 years which she did, but after that time she still wasn't allowed any contact with her son and GC and was given no indication when her 'punishment' would end.

As for being "so far in her camp" I understand her pain and devastation because I am estranged. I am also able too, and have done so in numerous occasions, have empathy with those who have chosen to estrange themselves.

I see a lot of cultural difference here..I am in the uk but know that in parts of America (where op is) that religion is very part of life, such a part of life that sending bible verses would not be seen as unusual or strange.
I also see that op has a difference in approach to family per se, she respects elders, grandparents are part of life, I might nag my ds or dd about cleaning their floor but they know its just me, I'm not trying to criticise I'm just being their mum. I'm sure I'm a pain sometimes & so are they, my own dm is at times too but you put up with some to maintain the status quo, and so your dc have relationships that are different than you can offer as parents, so they keep links with their history & family. Its the child who has this right. Absolutely.

Its such a sad story that op has been cut out of this family. She seems to want to be herself & has learnt this way of being throughout her own life, its truly painful to have to shift so much to be accepted into your own family. The dil sounds very sensitive to me & I'm sure with some adjustment on both sides ot would work. But it sounds like this mil has become the 'tyrant' in the minds of the dil & ds. Its very hard to come back from this.
I would be giving space as much as possible but I would also be sending birthday/Christmas cards & letting them know you're thinking of them at these times. Open a savings account for the gc or something like this if you can. It doesn't have to be much but in the cards maybe say (in a note to parents) as you don't know what they'd like you're putting money you'd have spent on their gift aside for them.
Painful as it is, it is what it is for now. But things change & there's always hope. Much love to you op.

"Before going down the cutting out route, wouldn't it be better to set boundaries and then think again if she doesn't comply?"

By the OP's own words, her son did this. They set clear boundaries that she obviously understood because she relayed then here, but she decided to ignore them because they weren't what she wanted. She continually put her own wants over the wants and needs of her son and his family...so they did what you said. They gave boundaries, she didn't comply with them, so they "thought again" and severed the relationship.

However, even with them following your plan, Smileless2012, you still seem to think they were unreasonable, so I ask you: is there anything Instagamma could have done (short of abuse or violence) that would justify a cut off in your eyes, or has your own situation landed you so far in her camp that you think she deserves a relationship with her GCs no matter what, just by virtue of their biological ties?

I'm glad that your sister got the help she needed maddyone and was reunited with her family. I hope your parents were still here when this happened.

I can understand the apprehension when your sister first initiated contact again. Once some one has cut out family it must be a fear that it will happen again.

If our ES were ever to contact us to see about reconciliation the fear that he would one day cut us out again would never leave.

There's definitely a trend to label people as narcissist and sociopaths as if this is justification for some of the behaviour that we witness today.

Perhaps some need to use these labels in order to justify their decision to walk away.

I don't suppose she is, but I hope the OP is still reading this thread and seeing that there is some support and understanding for her here despite the amount and level of criticism.

Alexa and Smileless, I have to agree with you both on this thread, this grandmother may very well have behaved unadvisedly with some of her behaviours, but from the description I have read, the punishment doesn’t seem to fit the crime. There are a lot of posts on here which are totally over the top in their condemnation of this rather sad lady, and as Smileless points out, most likely the these posters have never experienced cut off. I hope they never do, hence the expression ‘walk a mile in my shoes’.
My own sister cut off her own family for approximately seven years. At the end of this time she sought us all out again. It turned out that she had been suffering from severe mental illness, and thankfully at last this was recognised and treatment followed. She needed to attend treatment at the psychiatric hospital for over two years, and will be on medication for the rest of her life. When she cut off the family, we had no idea what we had done, and my dear parents were devastated. Naturally we were delighted, if a little apprehensive when we reunited. I speak of this because mental health issues can sometimes be the reason for unwarranted cut off.
I also want to say that I find it difficult to believe that there are quite as many ‘narcissistic’ parents as some would have us believe. I believe it is a very fashionable trend in the USA to describe people as narcissistic. I would only accept such a label if it were diagnosed by a psychiatrist.

Katekhappens to us all.

Sorry! My mistake......looks as if more than my get up and go has gone!

Found the thread, it isn't the same poster the OP is moggie.

Perhaps some of the posts put her off from responding or even reading Katek. Haven't seen the other thread, where is it?

Is that the same person Katek?

I’m puzzled. Why is there a second very similar thread from the OP when she’s not responding to this one? (Lack of seeing my grandchildren 30/4/18)

That's very sad Stirling and a nightmare situation for your s.i.l. and her husband. I suppose the problem here is that her mother's behaviour has always been tolerated.

No reasonable person IMO would behave in such a way but that said, if someone's behaviour isn't challenged then they have no reason to change.

Before going down the cutting out route, wouldn't it be better to set boundaries and then think again if she doesn't comply? Maybe is she was made aware of the final solution she'd moderate her behaviour.

Perhaps not enough was made of asking her to leave the delivery room. I'd be surprised if the medial staff would have tolerated her presence if it had been firmly and forcibly stated by her D and s.i.l. that she wasn't wanted there.

"why would she have had a relationship with her son up until he married and had children of his own?"

Smileless2012, It is not uncommon for AC to put up with things for themselves that they are not willing to subject their children or other loved ones to.

My sister-in-law's mother is frankly fairly terrible. She's not physically abusive, but she demands unreasonable things from her daughter. She also says awful things to her like "You know we (her parents) are the only ones who really love you. Everyone else will leave you eventually."

My sister-in-law told me she is unhappy with the relationship with her mother, but she doesn't want to lose her mother, so she bends over backwards to accommodate her, with no compromises from her mother at all.

Prior to becoming pregnant for the first time, SIL told me "If my mother doesn't change before I have children, I'm going to have to cut her off. I love her, but I will not accept for my children what I accept for myself."

My sister-in-law recently had her first child, and I see the end coming. She told me she did not want her mother in the room with her during birth. I mentioned it a couple weeks before and she got a look of absolute horror on her face and said "absolutely not". Well, her mother snuck into the delivery room and didn't leave when asked. She then posted a play-by-play of the birth on Facebook before my SIL even posted the birth announcement. In Grandma's own words: "I kinda just went in there to help...it was soon time...hopefully she felt better with me there and not resentful...I asked if I should leave. The father said yes, but she said she didn't care at that point so I took advantage of that"

So she stayed, despite being told she should leave, because my SIL was too distracted actively giving birth to tell her she needed to leave.

The cut off is coming. I can see it clearly.

gummybears, I should think estranged GPs would find use to your excellent post.

knickas63 it’s lovely that you are able to have such a close relationship with your grandchildren. However it just simply wouldn’t work for many families. My dgs is blessed (due to divorce on both sides) with 4 sets of loving grandparents. Us all visiting 2-3 times a week would mean that the family never had time just the 3 of them, and dil (who is the contact for almost all visits. My son is useless bless him) wouldn’t be able to live her life. I’m blessed to see my dgs very week, as are the other sets of grandparents. But this isn’t always easy for dil to arrange, and that doesn’t include other relatives, dgs playgroups etc.

I saw on a different thread somebody discussing ‘mismatched expectations’ and believe this is quite possibly at the route of the op’s problems. (I was guilty of it myself during the first few weeks/months) She hoped to be very hands on, involved in the day to day life of the family. That just isn’t always the modern way.

Family life has changed, fathers are more involved. The hands on help from the grandmothers isn’t always needed. We can have a different, but equally loving the relationship with out dgc.

I sincerely hope that the op manages to either find some advice that helps her rebuild the relationship or at least some comfort that allows her to find some peace.

'I see my DGC 2-3 times a week on average, and always at least once. I talk to my daughters every day, and the doors of all our houses are open. I will call first - to make sure they are in or not busy, but I have never been turned away and I would never turn them away.'

Difference is you sound like you have a good relationship and it sounds like this both works. You communicate. That's fine. See them everyday if it works.

OP has listed multiple reasons why her son has spoke to her and tried to correct it before it disintegrated into nothing and I think turning OP away was the only way it was going to get through to her as she wasn't listening.

'Mom can you not call in invited' Yes.
'Can you stop giving advice on our baby when we haven't asked for It' Yes
'Can you arrange a time to pop in as we are busy and just need a routine' Yes
'Can you not call in uninvited with friends' Yes
'We can't do 2-3 times a week as we have plans/work/appointments, could we do a few times a month instead' Yes.
'Can you stop implying that my wife has MH issues as she doesn't let you do what you want with our baby' Yes.

It's not difficult.

Imagine the OP seeing her Grandchild twice a month, on days and times that work for both of them, having a good relationship with her son and DIL as adults and taking their lead when it comes to their child.

It's not difficult.

I feel very sad reading this thread. Clearly the OP had boundary problems, and it sounds as if the relationship was not good. We only heard her side and it was bitter. However, hearing so many of you post about GP expecting too much? I find it difficult to understand. I see my DGC 2-3 times a week on average, and always at least once. I talk to my daughters every day, and the doors of all our houses are open. I will call first - to make sure they are in or not busy, but I have never been turned away and I would never turn them away. Family and family connections are so important. We have become so insular, and it seems that family has become less valued. Your childrens new family, partners and children should always come first to them, but the key is in understanding that and becoming part of their support network, supporting them as a family. I am so very sorry for all those people estranged from their family members. I have yet to have a GC from my son and his partner though. We get on well at the moment - and I do so hope it continues - but I think realtionships with DIL are a little more 'tricky'.

agnurse I'm sure we are all aware of the number of victims who respond positively to their abuser. That's one of the things that makes it so painful for P's who find themselves CO when they've never been abusive, when they're not narcissist or sociopaths.

FarNorth I agree completely. I'm not saying the OP is doing This, but it's very common that overbearing people don't see everything they're doing, or else actively try to deny things they have done.

All I hear from the OP is a lot of how unfaaaair it is that she's been cut off and how all she wanted was to see her graaaandbabies and how they essentially wouldn't let her walk all over them and as a consequence they need to get back in line and she's pressuring them to do so.

Sadly it is quite possible that a lot of this may have been in place before DS and DIL got together. It's just that in some families (again not necessarily the OP's) there is a rule of "don't rock the boat because Mom will throw a strop". It's easier just to go along to get along. But when someone new comes in and recognizes that the dynamic is unhealthy, that person is often able to bring people around to recognize how unhealthy the situation is. This brings people out of the FOG and upsets the applecart - and Mom throws a strop because she's not in control anymore.

We only have the OP's version of events. Yet from her very own version, most of us can see that she has been overbearing and intrusive in her son's relationship.
I wonder how things would look from the son's and DiL's point of view.

You would also be astounded at how many times people have responded positively to their abusers. It's a common phenomenon known as Stockholm Syndrome. FIL is a classic example of this. We hear all about "St. GFIL of blessed memory" while in reality the man physically and emotionally abused all of his children, sexually abused one of them, and emotionally abused his grandchildren. It's also been documented that often people who have been the victims of abuse can be in a FOG - Fear, Obligation, Guilt. They may not recognize that the behaviour of their parent(s) is abnormal because that's all they know. It's why the majority of abusers were once abused themselves. It's their normal.

You cannot base how toxic or non-toxic a relationship is solely by the fact that two people choose to engage in the relationship. For example, many women choose to stay in abusive situations simply because they are afraid of what will happen if they leave the abuser - and they may be legitimately afraid. Just because the son "wants to be a good son" and they had a "good relationship before DIL" doesn't mean the relationship was healthy. It's possible the son never had the tools to stand up for himself until DIL came along and helped him to see that his mother's behaviour was smothering and unhealthy.

We don't see FIL because he's a narcissist. I would hope that I would have a good enough relationship with my children and be reasonable enough to abide by their wishes and not end up in a position of being CO. My parents are currently CO from my sister and her husband (sister and BIL's choice). My parents have simply chosen to accept the estrangement. They would like to have some contact, but recognize that this is not likely. They've chosen not to position their entire lives on the premise of being estranged.

agnurse you constantly refer to 'normal' and 'loving' parents and GP's when criticising P's and GP's who are upset at not being included in their AC'sand GC's lives.

The OP's behaviour is no more unreasonable or demanding that that of her son and his wife. They unreasonably demand that she have nothing to do with them and their children. They unreasonably demand that she accept their decision. They unreasonably demand that she simply accept that other family members are made welcome when she is the only one being excluded.

She was not a cruel and abusive mother, she is not a cruel and abusive GM. If she were, why would her son who has cut her out tell her he should be a better son? If she were, why would she have had a relationship with her son up until he married and had children of his own?

"It was only when she became unreasonable and demanded more and showed up unannounced that she was cut off". If parents only have to be unreasonable, demanding and show up unannounced to be cut off by their own AC then heaven help us all.

You're not estranged are you. You haven't been cut out of your AC's life and the lives of your children. You have absolutely no idea of how traumatic an experience it is. What it's like spend the rest of your life with this living bereavement.

I'm not saying that you're not entitled to your opinion, of course you are. But before you talk so glibly about a parent being cut out, for the reasons stated by the OP, perhaps you should take a moment and try to imagine what it's like to know that your own child never wants anything to do with you ever again. Perhaps you should take a moment and try to imagine what it's like to know you have GC that you'll never meet, never know what they look like, never know what their voices sound like and never hear them laugh.