How long can this go on

The only thing that you can do to keep your sanity, is to back off, in the nicest way. You cannot play other's games in order to see your grandchildren. I couldn't understand all the abbreviations or the term gaslighting, it is so cruel, font enable it. By getting so upset by it all, you risk your relationship with the rest of your family. Be positive and welcoming with them. Don't let this one person rule your life.

I feel your pain and sadness. In same situation, T&C, constant bullying but if I don't play game they will cut us out of gd life completely. She loves us and enjoys spending time with us, it's a two way relationship. But AC resents us, is indifferent. It's extremely hard to cope with, I don't know the answer.

Sorry, I'm not sure I was clear. When I say that NCAC might be "setting some limits," I really should have said "a limit," meaning a limit of visits with you every other month. Since you say she sees others more often, I agree that it's not because she's "too busy." Sadly, she just seems to prefer that time interval with you (and perhaps a few others). It hurts, I know, but at least she's not shutting you out entirely. I realize she has cut you and some others out of some family events, however, and I am very sorry about that, too.

Namsnanny, is it possible that NCAC is setting some limits albeit in a passive/aggressive way? She may say, "Call next week," but she only lets you see GC about every two months as someone pointed out. You say the amount of visits don't matter, but maybe to her the time interval does. You also seem to think she's gradually stretching out the time, but, oh, honey, there's no evidence of that in your post. How about only calling and asking about a visit every other month and see how that goes?

Also, I agree with the idea of inviting your AC on other days - not the traditional holidays, etc. Surely, some of them will come?

Obviously, a few years ago, something happened that made NCAC want to pull away from you. Might not be your fault, but that doesn't change anything. I'm so sorry. Any idea what it was? If aunts, uncles, etc. were involved, that may be why she pushed them away, too. Or maybe she's closing them out because they tried to change her mind about things. I just hope things get better instead of worse.

Wow, what an interesting topic.

The whole nearly non contact seems emotional torture.

And then the rise of different levels of narcissism. I’d like to see statistics - how would one measure this?

Um, the DSM (yep folks, another acronym - most will know it - the American Pyschriatric Diagonistic Bible) has figures for Narcisstic Personality Disorder - 1% to 2% of the population. Tricky figure to calculate as people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder don’t seek treatment, so let’s up the figure to 5%. This is pretty dodgy statistically for all sorts of reasons but that’s 5 people might have Narcissistic Personality Disorder in a 100.

I can’t imagine the pain of being denied your grandchildren again, and again and this seems to be almost infectious this “go non contact” family scenario.

Like Batty, how did we get here, yep consumerism/capitalism, some of us self soothe through Internet self validation, etc, and yes I do think it’s across several generations but Aargh its so horrid ..... ... and insidious really. And almost impossible to “call out”.
Confused

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Oh my goodness OP I am not surprised you are feeling fragile but for your mental health I would urge you to stop ringing every week only to be fobbed off. I am not sure if it is your daughter or son who you have reduced contact with. Every 7 or 8 weeks is not too bad though and I think one of the suggestions above is good in that invite all your AC and their families around every so often including the one you do not see much of.

I realise it must be hard not to see the GC but making sure you don't blame your other AC for still keeping in touch with their sibling is important as is keeping lines of communication open with them all. It must be very difficult when you don't know what you have done wrong. I think I would back off for a bit though and see if this helps.

Exactly oodles, there's good and bad on youtube and the web in general. What is helpful to some isn't necessarily helpful to others.

It was a dear friend of ours who first said he thought our ES's wife was a narcissist and when I started reading on this particular subject I was shocked at the amount of similarities there were; how many boxes she ticked.

It was the first moment of clarity. Giving no answers to the problems she was creating it at least explained how and why things had gone so horribly wrong. As I posted earlier on this thread, the best piece of advice I came across was the only way to win the game with a narcissist is to stop playing.

Doing so meant losing our son and only GC but it saved our sanity and our mental and physical well being. Life is for living, not for being bullied, manipulated, emotionally blackmailed and controlled.

The biggest sadness for me is what has happened to our son. Not our loss of him but his loss of himself. I hope one day that he'll see how things really are and that one day he'll regain some part of the loving, kind, compassionate and thoughtful man he used to be. For his own sake and the sake of his children.

thanks luz, I feel batty may indeed be living up to her name these days.
Have a nice evening.

oldbatty I may have been a bit too harsh above please don't be upset. The truth is that people will go to YouTube and any good therapist/counsellor would do well to be aware of what is there because his/her clients will be looking on it. As I said, when I was asked to look at it, I was pleasantly surprised by how many properly qualified professionals in mental health make informative and supportive videos for people suffering from specific kinds of problems. The main line of help is directed at people who are recovering from abuse, mostly the abuse of a Narcissist. There's masses of info about narcissism on the web. That's another reason why, if you are helping a client who is coping with narcissistic abuse, it might be a good idea to check in with what he/she is looking at on the web and be able to give some safe and healthy guidelines. People will use it no matter what our own personal opinions are.
Anyway, I did feel attacked and was a bit hurt so forgive me if I spoke too reactively. In fact you made a perfectly good observation. I hope I've been able to explain why therapists etc. do keep an eye on what their clients are looking at on the web.

I also thought, in this context on GN, people who may not be able to access counselling may be looking for information. I think of the internet as a huge library. Some of it is excellent a lot of it is cr...p. If there is something useful there, then use it, but be aware of what to look out for so you can recognise the pitfalls of the bad ones.
Even one Clinical Psychologist is, in my v. humble op. a very bad person to watch on YT if you are looking for reliable info and help re recovery from abuse, depression etc.

I think oldbatty, that there is both good and bad on youtube, it is really helpful to get a pointer to videos which are by reputable people whose videos will be useful rather than waste time looking at those which are not. Things found on the internet are a mixture of good, bad and everything in between, but so are books. Good videos by trusted professionals or volunteers who work in the field are a great way of helping people, free and easily accessible. Sometimes it is just knowing which ones to look out for
Selfish behaviour is nothing new, sadly I'm sure many like me will have encountered it in our generation and in previous generations. Maybe some young people do mellow with age, so we see less of it as people grow older, but not all do. My own ex-husband was always me, me, me, an abusive narcissist, although not officially diagnosed, there was nothing wrong with him, only time he ever saw a counsellor was because he had behaved very badly at work and had been observed, so booked himself in before he was disciplined so he could say he was doing smething about it; he told me what he'd said to him which was very deficient in its scope and based on what he told me, not awfully true, and if what he told me that the counsellor said was true, he ought to be struck off. He hated visiting my parents; when we were there, he'd make sure that we spent as little time as possible there, going out and doing things that he wanted to do, and wanted to do it as little as possible. He also hated it if I went on my own or with the children, and they were too far away to go unless we were staying, so I could never just pop round. It's a tactic of an abuser I now realise, to isolate you from those who might notice things were wrong and help you. His father was very selfish and self-centred, as in a different way was the grandfather of his that I knew. His mother was very self centred too in a more passive way, maybe to help her cope with 2 difficult men, who knows.

oldbatty thanks! So glad it wasn't me you meant! I'm such an advocate of the goodness of young people and pointing out the tough time they have in today's world, I probably over-reacted! In the research, there was a trend towards the "me" attitude. So it is implicit that there were still many people who did not have that attitude.

oldbatty Is this another dig at me?

I was asked to do some research into the kind of "help" people were getting when they turned to Social media concerning mental health issues.

You see - you jump to another conclusion. You say "cite you tube as a source of wisdom?" Source of wisdom is a leap.

On YouTube I found a vast amount of very varied information. It ranged from terrible to very good. There are some good presenters who are qualified mental health professionals who have bothered to make videos to help people with problems. If you know what to look for, and "fore armed is fore warned", they can be very supportive. Actually I will state here that a few of their videos do contain wisdom, I am thinking of one Clinical Psychologist in particular.

The charity that asked me to research the Social Media content was concerned about their members who do use places like YouTube. Many people look things up on the internet. Some cannot get or afford Counselling and try and find help on the internet. I was asked to do a study to see what was out there and how best to guide people.

And yes, I still am reputable.

agnurse I know. However, if you say you're a professional Counsellor and are supposed to be making a helpful video, I think it is very irresponsible and actually unethical to label a whole group of people like this. People with this disorder are the most likely to ask for help. We shouldn't put them off, especially if we say we are a Professional in that field. Also some, in recovery , do try hard to get control over their mood swings etc.
I agree that your 13 tear old cannot be asked to carry the burden of another girl with serious mental health problems. I think you are right to ask her to reduce her contact with the girl. At 13, she is too young for this kind of problem and needs to have as care-free a life as possible doing all the normal things for her age.
It is distressing to hear about the other child. I hope there is a mental health team who are supporting her and her family. Child services are dreadfully stretched these days. It would be so good if the child could follow a program to help her interact more positively with other people and gain an understanding about how she is upsetting people and losing friends by what she is doing. She needs help.
Good luck! I do hope your 13yr old can relax free of worrying about this other poor girl.

Why would any reputable therapist cite you tube as a source of wisdom?

luzdoh

Borderlines can be very difficult to work with. Often they present with "attitude" problems and they tend to "split" staff (i.e. pitting them against each other). They also tend to go to emotional extremes.

My kid has a friend who is officially diagnosed as having bipolar disorder but I suspect she's also borderline. (She can't be officially diagnosed until she's 18, and her parents' English is not great as they're from another country, so the diagnosis can't be confirmed and I can't really explain to them what I think is happening.) We have been advising our daughter to see this friend less because she's extremely emotionally exhausting. My kid is 13 and has her own issues. It's not reasonable to expect her to be a therapist to a young girl with serious emotional problems.

* muffinthemoo* Brilliant!
I ought to say though that Personality Disorders are placed in three clusters* and the illnesses under them are so extremely different from one another that I think it's a bit hard on some people who do come for help and get a personality disorder diagnosis! most of the time we only hear it in terms of a psychopath! I hate the term Personality Disorder anyway as I think it adds to the person's suffering in most cases and is only good for the cases who don't present themselves for help - the ones your Aunty was thinking about. The others think it means they are really bad people and don't realise this does not mean they have anything in common with a psychopath (strictly speaking Anti Social Pers. Dis.) except that disorder is in another cluster. I remember one young woman being diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, after she attempted suicide and then came for help. She was so distressed by the name of her disorder, I really wished we could change these titles for something better!

Cluster B, with Narcissistic personality Disorder in it, also has Antisocial Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder (excessive emotionality and attention seeking.) and Borderline Personality Disorder (people tend to experience intense and unstable emotions and moods - this group is the most likely to seek help)- Borderline is a misnomer as it was first thought to be on a borderline of Schizophrenia, but it isn't.

*ClusterA (the "odd, eccentric" cluster);
Cluster B (the "dramatic, emotional, erratic" cluster); and,
Cluster C (the "anxious, fearful" cluster).

I get very upset sometimes when I see on YouTube some so-called Therapist/life coach ranting on about "Borderlines" saying such things as "Borderlines are awful, Counsellors hate them" and even saying worse things. I even asked YT to take it down. Imagine if you were trying to cope with such an illness and went to the internet for help and saw that? That's why I am very wary of the internet and YouTube. It's such a shame because there are some very good well-qualified people who are giving good advice there.

Mind you, I do say Narcissists are awful! and i'm a Counsellor and psychologist (retired!) But then, narcissists are very happy with themselves and don't agree that there is anything wrong with them, so they wouldn't own the title anyway!
I do hope all this expose of narcissism helps dear Namsnanny.

sorry the writing off a generation wasn't meant at one person.

Could it be factors are pushing us all towards a me me me attitude? It is perhaps not jut the younger generations. Also traditional outlets for young people, such as the youth service are practically non existent. School has become a hideous, competetive place and money and fame are the new religion.

muffinthemoothat's so true.

I am often reminded of a comment made by a psychiatrist family friend.

“You see darling, the difference between mental illness amd personality disorder is this. When you have a mental illness, you have the problem. When you have a personality disorder, everyone else has the problem!”

It was certainly apt for the person he was talking about...

"bust stop"? ooh! bus stop methinks

I made it sound as if my children had different fathers. I was only married once. My Children all had the same father but were born with age gaps of 4 and 8 years. Their father was a "covert narcissist" but at the time I had no idea what was going on. I realised this about him most forcibly recently when I saw a video on YouTube by Dr Craig Malkin. If you are waiting for Counselling or can't get to it, then there are some good people and groups on You Tube but do be very careful. I know you all know this so please forgive me saying the obvious! I found it really helpful to learn about the behaviour of the 3 most difficult people in my life. It made me feel a lot better to realise that there were other people like them and that I was not alone. One thing a narcissist partner does is to isolate his/her wife/husband from their friends and family.

Ziggy62 That's sooo like my mother! (which incidentally being a much older generation shows there certainly were some selfish people around in latter years!)

Mine would always say "You are so lucky you can do/have ..... whatever" I used to say something kind until she said, "You're so lucky you can get to a choir, no one gives me a lift." Her bus stop was 50 yards from the house, the choir a 5 min bus journey, the venue next to the bust stop on arrival. I had moved house, did not know the area, lived in a remote village, 7 months pregnant, had walked about half a mile to the little creepy train station, couldn't find the hall for the choir the first time as it was so far up a long hill. So was too late for my audition. I did the same journey the next week and then became a member for about 20 years. During which time I had to hear how lucky I was....
I can't believe how many of us there are! Yet with my association with the small bit of research and so on that I do regarding abusive relationships (which are nearly all blighted by the traits of narcissism) I suppose I should have known.
I have to relate what a lovely friend said to me. He happens to be a middle aged gay-guy in a very steady and very long-term relationship. He came to collect my dogs for me as I was about to do my duty and go to the Children and Grand children for Christmas. I was feeling ill but had to go as I can only not go if I am a) dead b) unable to get out of bed. I said in jest "Why can't you be one of my children then I can come to you?" Immediately he said "If I were one of your children I wouldn't be like I am. I'd be .... um .. errr I'd be... errr" I had to say "Spoilt?" for him! He said 'Well something like that ... I mean, well really you are too nice to them, look at you now, I can see you are ill you should be in bed!"
It really did make me think. I did spoil them. But then, the one who is the most difficult had a father (who was terrible) who committed suicide when she was 8, so naturally I was a bit too soft.
You know, I used to say (and this you don't find in a psychology book!) It's always as if "The mother's place is in the wrong!"

reading post by Luzdoh made me smile. My mother (who as mentioned I no longer have contact with) became worse after the death of my lovely father . She apparently went for counselling but was told after a few months they could do no more for her. I found a private psychiatrist ( who also had a NHS clinic and was well respected in the area). My mother complained that since losing my father the local villagers never invited her round for lunch/dinner/drinks etc. It was suggested she invited friends to hers. Her reply "why should I?". That was on the first visit, she never returned and shortly after that incident I gave up

crazyH I've got to be quick here - sorry!

Like all of us you are trying desperately to work out where undesirable/horrible behaviour comes from.

If only I knew! Sorry I do not have the answer.

Most Psychchologists and psychiatrists I know seem to imply that traits of Narcissism are "learned behaviour" in psych parlance but this doesn't mean directly learned. There are theories of the reason a person is Narcissistic. You can google them but I would take them carefully because at least two recent pieces of research found them not to be true.

If one child in a family is selfish and another is not but parents treated them pretty much the same why is this? I think there's a bit too much emphasis on nurture but it is a very interesting topic.

The reason I steer clear of it when confronted with a difficult child, is because it gives good parents terrible heart-ache and guilt. We all know lovely people who are good parents but have a child who behaves badly. We all know bad parents who have ghastly kids. What can I say? All we can do is our best! People who write here, by definition, are people who care and want to do the right thing. You are all good people. I get so upset when the "nurture" part becomes a "blame the parent" argument, however subtly. Of course none of us is perfect but that (provided it's not extreme) in itself is a good thing!

Please don't agonise too much, you will make yourselves unhappy. We know children are different from each other, some are difficult and some people do grow up to be very difficult. The influence of school, society, fashion all that stuff plays a huge part. But then, if that influence were to be so strong one would expect more or less everyone to be remarkably similar. They are not.

But I still feel , and it's my own opinion, that we are born with our own nature and this is a very strong part of us. You can see it in families and generations. People doing ancestry research find ancestors with interests like their own. Our nature is given us and remains part of us and is affected by what happens to us, what we learn, see, feel and do.

I really wish I could give a nice clear answer! The trouble is, at this time nobody really knows!

But PLEASE do not agonise and worry that you somehow did something that made your offspring become selfish and unpleasant (if this is the case). As I explained above, the research seems to show that the way society is today has changed each generation or cohort over each ten years, gradually making a shift towards a more "me-centred" outlook. That's in America and Western Europe. But in an individual family, who can say? The individual differences will be greater (within each cohort) than the between generation differences if you follow me.

I forgot to say to OldBatty, I never" write off a whole generation." I was hurt that she made this assumption. It is not at all what came out of the research and not at all what I said. To report research is simply that, not to make decisions about "writing off" . Also, clearly it is not "the whole" generation! Please try to avoid sweeping statements, they are rarely the truth. I too am a fervent supporter of the many wonderful young people in our world. Only recently I posted a sharp criticism on a YouTube of Jordan Peterson's total denigration of students. The students I taught were and are wonderful people.