Pathological liar

GrandmaMoira I think you make really good point in so clearly showing the difference between the person who likes to exaggerate a bit for effect and the con-merchant. Apparently some people lie and do believe their lies! I have not met anyone like this though. I think too your point about the liar believing everyone lies is very important. It made me realise that they live in a different world where they think everyone has low morals regarding telling the truth. How depressing. I find it very hard to deal with liars. I grew up with a half-sister older than I who was one of those who lied in preference to the truth and even lied when it was of no purpose to her. I used to get so distressed and confused as I stood by her side when she was telling these awful stories. I simply could not abide it, it was as if someone was filling my head with pebbles! When I asked her why she did it she used to get so angry with me and threaten me with terrible things so I learned from very young to keep quiet. I honestly think my migraines started because I used to have to be brought home from school by her and she used to lie all the way to the other children until we arrived home. Every day by the time we were back home I had a terrible head ache!

GoldenAge Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm only wondering, not arguing,- you mentioned someone you said was slightly autistic who, from what you've said gives different stories to different people. I just wanted to say in passing that if he is actually Autistic he isn't likely to be deliberately lying. One of the things about Autism is that people are very literal in what they say. He may not interpret what he sees accurately though because if there is a social exchange involved, especially if it is a bit subtle, then it would go over his head, if he's autistic. I did research on Autism. One reason I love Autistic people is because they just can't lie. Maybe this lad you know seems autistic but has a different kind of developmental disability.
Hope you don't mind me mentioning it! I'm slightly on the fringe of the Autistic spectrum myself so I tend to be a bit pedantic, but there's absolutely no bad feelings involved. Like my cousin who is the same, we love discussing things! Thanks.

I think there is a difference between those who exaggerate, such as men down the pub saying they earn more than they do, and pathological liars who can be con merchants and cause serious problems to those around them.
I know someone who tells quite serious lies and he does believe them when he repeats them. He also believes that everyone lies.

Applegran
you said you remember "reading that the brains of compulsive liars are different from the rest of ours" You may have seen something about the brain imaging studies research.
There are studies, forgive me for not spending time looking them all up. Some include studies on Psychopathy/Antisocial Behaviour Disorder which has as a diagnostic criteria "compulsive lying". The studies found more white matter than gray matter in the prefrontal cortex* of the compulsive liars.
* the area of the brain that enables people to make moral evaluations and feel guilty about doing wrong.

In the case we are talking about here, we don't know if there is is a pathological reason. However drivergran would have been regarded as a very good relative for giving actual the examples of behaviour she gives here if she had spoken to us when I was involved in research at the Institute of Psychiatry! Many people have disorders or are on the end of the spectrum of a disorder which, by its nature, does not mean the person themselves comes for advice/help. Often it is relatives who have to ask for help and then we need to ask for as much info as they could give us.
However, as I was about to say, we can't tell what is actually going on here in terms of clinical explanations. I think the best thing we can do is support the OP and her daughter with suggestions as to what we might do or maybe some people have some experience of this and can tell us how they coped.
There are quite a lot of conditions in which compulsive lying is a feature. So I would advise her daughter to go to the GP and talk it over if she needs help, and be ready to describe other behaviour and personality traits her husband has. I do hope the poor girl's life begins to improve once she addresses this issue. I really can't see how she can manage her life trying to live with it, unless he never does it at home!

driverann Does he do other things? Is he manipulative? Does he like to be the centre of attention? Is he quick to anger? Does he pay his share of the bill or take his turn with the washing up for example? Is he reliable, for example, if he says he will pick your daughter up, does he turn up on time?
Unless he has suddenly recently had a blow to the head or a brain disease, which I think you would know, then you must accept that your daughter has been lied to from the first time they met. She must have found it very odd. Did she not say anything before? Do his lies ever involve fantasies about himself such as having done amazing things or met famous people? How has your daughter managed to sustain a relationship with him and run a home with him?
For me, truth is paramount in a relationship. I don't mean that "little white lies," about "no, your bum looks very nice in that" (unless it is so bad, it's best you know your bum looks disastrous and then the white lie can gloss over how bad...) and to keep a birthday treat secret. I mean the lies of the very kind of thing illustrated here. If a partner is automatically lying about every day matters, that would be a very serious problem for me.
I would challenge him on his lies. However, do not expect him to be easy in response. Some liars believe their lies, some get angry.
There are too many underlying causes for compulsive lying to go into here. I am very concerned about the reasons for your SIL telling these pointless lies. I would make sure your daughter knows you are always there to support her, and are not intruding, are always discreet but that if she needs you, you are right there. Her husband does not sound like a healthy, reliable adult with whom to share one's life.
I am sorry to say this but I can't think of a gentler way to put it. I wish you and your daughter the very best of luck.

Just to add to the mix. My window cleaner charges £9 for detached 5 bed house with 30 odd windows!! We are in the East Midlands!

I think your SIL has a personality disorder which is now defined as a mental illness, although there is little in the way of treatment. A good therapist might be able to uncover the root of these lies buthe's notgoing to go to a therapist is he. I don't think challenging him is going to help because he will just put another lie on top and will build a tower of lies. There will be a reason for his lies but he's not going to be open about it or may not make the links between some past trauma or troubled childhood and his need to lie. It could be that he doesn't like himself and tries to make himself more interesting. A lot of posters have asked about how your daughter copes.

Our window cleaner charges £7-00, that's for front and back doors, 8ft wide French window, and ten windows, three of which are 9ft by 8ft. That's Wirral/Cheshire border!

I can't bear liars, my FiL has probably never told the truth in his life, so I no longer have anything to do with him.
His lies are all designed to make him look good, but he makes such ridiculous claims, everyone knows he's lying. Examples include him telling people he bought our house for us, bought our DS's house for him, paid DS's University fees, buys a new car for DH, DS, and DDiL every six months (not for me, please note), pays for all our holidays, and gives each of us £1000 for each birthday/Xmas/Anniversary!
None of it's true!

If he pulled the bullshit in front of me I'd call him out.
It would drive me insane.
I would encourage your daughter to speak to him about this. Are there children involved? Kids are easily influenced, if it's ok for an adult to tell lies / embellish stories then children will be copying!!!

The examples you goe are all money related

Could be perhaps have a debt problem / gambling problem?

To use an old fashioned word I would say he is a romancer, a far kinder word. To my mind a liar is someone tho uses lies for their own benefit or to cover things up, again for the their own benefit. There must be some reason for these exaggerations which probably goes back to childhood, perhaps to gain attention. There's far worse things for a SIL to be........... A wife beater? Just take what he says with a pinch of salt and don't be so condemning.

It depends whether it's just habitual exaggeration to boost himself (even although it's a pretty pointless thing to do) or whether it's lying purposely in order to deceive or gain some financial advantage. I've a relative who exaggerates all sorts of basic harmless things "There are hundreds more cars using this road than when we first came here!" etc etc. We just let him get in with it & pay no attention, because otherwise he's a good man, kind to his family and honest with important financial matters. He'd help anyone out in an emergency and never cheat anybody. If you tax him about what he's said he seems to genuinely believe what he's saying. I'm a great believer in "By their deeds shall you know them" and if he treats your daughter well and she's happy with him, just leave them to it.

We've got one of those too. Walter Mitty/Pathological Liar, what he hasn't done is not worth mentioning, in his mind!!! Told us he had been in the army, seconded to an American war ship to teach the American Sailors how to dive, worked in North Korean waters blowing up warships. He was never in the army. How he hired a helicopter to fly over central park in New York, but it never arrived, how the GP refused to sign his insurance form when he cancelled their honeymoon, (he didnt have insurance that's the crux of it) and I could go on.... don't trust one word that comes out his mouth. He is crass and very rude, but has a superiority complex, no one can do things as well as he can. I wish DD would kick him into touch.

I am so in awe of the diagnostic abilities of of some GN posters, even without any contact with the person concerned.

It is concerning that your son in law finds it necessary to embellish things in this way, I think your daughter needs to talk to him about this, it may escalate into more serious areas. For the time being I would leave her to deal with it unless you are affected directly in some way.

Next time he does it, ask him outright, in front of your daughter.
Say ' Why do you tell so many lies about silly things we know aren't true?'
If he challenges you to check his claims, cite the cost of the window cleaner who does both your houses. Cite the fence repair costs, cite everything that you know to be a lie.
Tell him he's acting like a kid and needs to grow up and get help.
I'd simply lay down hard facts and tell him how laughable it is that an adult married man feels the need to lie and find out yourself whether the chip shop actually ran out of chips.
Does he have a hidden mistress and that's why he 'disappeared' for 2 1/2hrs? Maybe he's reluctant to spend money on repairs and window cleaning as otherwise he would have nothing to spend on the g/f.
Frankly, I've no time for liars.

you seem to be assuming it is a medical condition of some sort (pathological - involving or caused by a physical or mental disease.) so I think you and your daughter should speak to him together in a non-accusatory way, as a matter of interest and concern for his health, and see if he wants to change or is even aware of what he is doing. there are treatments - CBT can be effective - but the sufferer has to be aware and want to change. addiction.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Pathological_Liar_Treatment

You have to challenge, his behaviour.

I have known a pathalogical liar and it is quite disturbing to be around someone like that. I think there is a sense in which they don't know the difference between truth and lies - and I remember once reading that the brains of compulsive liars are different from the rest of ours. This may be no help! Or it may help you to navigate this difficult situation. Talking to your DD, without being judgemental, but just to share your observations about what has happened with her, may be a great relief to her. I guess she may be held back through fear of judgements and anger, so an open truthful loving approach may help.

I was married to a pathological liar. He tells people he was in the army -fantasy, he was divorced with a son, - went out with a girl who had a baby for 2 weeks. Also said his parents were dead! Turns out they are both alive, I’ve met them. He’s on Twitter with the biography of, wait for it, a paramedic with a HGV Class 1 licence, ex army, served in NI were he was shot. Turned out he had a bleed on the brain and had surgery which left an indent in his head, divorced, no kids no pets. He had numerous affairs, which he found online, and I finally saw the light and asked him to leave. Your son-in-law is mild compared to my ex. Now that’s a compulsive liar. Just before I asked him to leave I showed his mother his lies and she was gobsmacked, she even said she would talk to him and get him help. I told her he was beyond that and it was over. Needless to say I take everything said to me now with a pinch of salt.

This sounds like some kind of illness; ironically someone we knew lied about everything and almost drove us mad as they were silly, out of all proportion things that sound like this person. We did hear that there was a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder at some point which explained a lot. Can your DD not persuade SiL to at least talk to someone about this? He is making himself look foolish and untrustworthy and it must be impacting on their social life and his work.

Someone with that particular personality is most unlikely to change. We had an ex son-in-law who was a pathological liar, and I believe part of him actually believed the fantasies he was creating around himself. Thankfully, our daughter is now free of him, as such routine deceipt has no place in a healthy marriage. His lies extended to financial matters, and eventually to relationships with other women. Your daughter should consider her future very carefully, as her Walter Mitty husband will always lie and fantasise, and does she really want to live with that for the remainder of her life?

Reading all the replies it is quite obvious that some people find this kind of thing harmless - just a kind of one-up-manship or an active imagination. Others find it worrying.

I would too, but before you do anything, do please try to find out whether it bothers your daughter or not, because anything you say to your SIL could cause a rift between you and your daughter.

I would challenge some of his lies - the window cleaner would have been a brilliant chance as you use the same one and could quite nicely have said that you didn't understand the price quote and then said what you pay.

If it is only this kind of money issue he lies about, it may just be a kind of bragging, but the fish-and-chips that took so long to find, and the not answering the phone, suggests to me that he nipped off for a pint or two, or into the bookies - that he is doing something he doesn't want to tell his wife!

I have met this kind of behaviour in alcoholics and in ex-soldiers suffering from PSD, so I am definitely worried on your behalf.

Could you possible just ask your daughter something along the lines of "What should I do when SIL tells tall stories? Ignore them or take him up on them?" Try to put the emphasis on your needing your DD's advice on tackling this rather than criticising SIL.

I hope I am worrying needlessly on your behalf because of my own experience. Do let us know how you get on.

My sympathies go to your daughter as I lived for 18 years with a similar person. At the worst it's narcissism, but most certainly a serious personality disorder. I don't believe there is a cure and if confronted, he will probably leave as fast as his legs will carry him. He will find another vulnerable person first who he can hoodwink for a while. Unfortunately these people quickly recognise potential vulnerable people. I can only assume your DD is a lovely kind person who doesn't think badly of people. But encourage her to get rid and have no further contact with him for her own sanity.

I just could not live with this. To me, any relationship is built upon trust and if I cannot trust what I am told, there really is no point in trying to have a relationship with that person. I always think that if you can lie so easily and blatantly about the small things, it is but a tiny step to lie about the big things. I also think they are showing they think you are an idiot who will believe anything. However, I have close family who "mis-remember" and "embellish" which is the kindest way I can put it and it seems to me that they really believe what they are saying even if you have photographic evidence to the contrary. I find it very strange. If they weren't family I'd have been long gone!
Your DD must have noticed your SIL's behaviour and decided to live with it as you haven't said she is very concerned. I hope they haven't got children who are seeing their role model teaching them how to lie with such ease.

My daughter had a boyfriend like this. She suspected he was seeing someone else and he cried and begged her to trust him.. Even when she found out he had got the other girl pregnant, he still denied cheating on her!

I would suggest your daughter gets written quotes for everything, looks at his mileage etc. before he leaves the house to get chips and that he is called out for being a liar every single time he is found out. Personally, I couldn't be with someone I didn't trust whole heartedly and, if he was a family member, I would have as little contact with him as possible..