Very difficult DIL

I would never have dreamed of helping myself to anything of my mums without asking first.

I suppose I bought my daughter up pretty much the same way, and she in turn, her boys.

Just goes to show how different we all are.

MissA exactly. One persons expectation of "making welcome* or *making oneself at home" is another persons rudeness.

In the end it takes time and understanding of both parties to get to a point of comfortable compromise. That is, if both parties wish to do so. If one party is not really interested that can make it well nigh impossible which is where I think individuals have to think about what their priorities are

For the OP I would say it was to maintain time and contact with her son and grandchildren in any way that that is possible ..but that is ofcourse for her to decide.

I agree and so true. Some here complain that the site is no longer friendly. And by "friendly" I translate 'that' into VALIDATING

I'm not sure I translate friendly into validating. Not always but I think quite often, the "friendly" comments link more to style of posting. It is perfectly possible to give hard messages without validating something and without being rude or unkind.

I do agree that the OP left very quickly when the first few posts did not validate/agree with her perspective. The speed of her departure does sadly suggest where at least some of the problem might lie for her.

Madgran -- "It is perfectly possible to give hard messages without validating something and without being rude or unkind." I'm afraid I have never found this to be my reality. One person's 'rude and unkind' is called telling "the truth" to other people/Me. If someone is 'red flagging' I won't overlook that it's still enabling/validating and IS unhealthy and there is no way to say "the truth" in a way that won't 'hurt' the recipient...

For example, if my 'mom' were to ask Me the reason(s) why I am No Contact, the answer, regardless of how polite or gently worded? It's an attack to be denied and turned into more of HER being the 'victim'... The following is sorta how things seem to 'go' from my POV...

Dear 'mom':

You asked for the reason(s) we are estranged. The answer is, I don't like how you treat Me and I never did. The longer answer is YOU need to self-reflect on how YOU 'behave'..."

Her 'type' of reply -- "That's so vague... What do you mean???"

Me -- "You don't see that how You treat people, in particular ME, is problematic. You need to self-reflect and by 'self-reflect' I MEAN look at what you say/how you say 'things' to Me and then ask yourself how YOU would feel if I said/did those 'things' to You..."

'mom' -- "I still don't 'understand' what I have done wrong!!!"

This is about the time frustration starts to 'set in'...

Me/'child' that is soon to go No Contact (whether they came from a dysfunctional family or not) the reaction is the same -- "Really? You cannot think of one single thing that You have said or done that might have hurt Me? You can't think of a single 'thing' that You should apologize for? And again, YOU don't see 'that' as the dysfunction I am trying to illustrate?"

'mom' -- "Clearly you are irrational and your mental illness is tainting your view of Me... I was a good 'mom'. I always put my children first... You clearly don't know what YOU are talking about..."

Me -- "Yes. I am 'mentally ill' and it's nice you acknowledge 'that'... Did/have You ever asked yourself WHY I am 'mentally ill'? I know You did... And your answer was, "Because Hannah is broken/'wrong' and always has been..." which is a very convenient 'answer' for You..."

'mom' -- "How can YOU think/believe these terrible 'things' about ME!?!?"

Me -- "Because YOU have treated Me in terrible ways!"

So there's the sort of situation I was faced with... Repeatedly.

And often this 'situation' ends in the AC sending a list of 'grievances'/allegations/'proof' to the 'parents' of their past behavior and then We ALL know what the 'standard reaction' is... It's that evil 'letter' full of lies and their child not remembering the situation 'correctly'...

SOOO after all 'that' firsthand/life experience, I think/believe it's far easier to just state -- "You/OP/whoever are raising huge red-flags to ME and here is WHY..." What the person does with my experience/knowledge is up to them...

Holy Hannah in your situation with your Mum the style of your communication is entirely appropriate.

I was talking about how to give hard messages to posters on line whom one has never met and have no relationship with per se other than in GN. They come on upset, pouring out their perpective and yes, sometimes it is pretty obvious why their might be a problem, although it is also easy to make assumptions which obviously takes care to avoid.

I am NOT saying it is inappropriate to state clearly ones view. I am NOT saying that just agreeing etc is helpful. I am saying that there are ways to say it that might help someone to look differently at their situation, to consider other perspectives. If ones purpose is to help then that is presumably important. If ones purpose is different then presumably one wont bother to try and "open their ears" and help them to listen!

It's not what is said but how it is said that makes the difference.

Giving a different point of view to a poster with sensitivity isn't validating. Validating is telling someone they've done nothing wrong when it's clear from what they've posted that that is not the case.

I agree Madgran, if you want to help someone by encouraging them to see a situation from not just their own perspective, making assumptions and/or not taking into consideration their feelings when replying is not going to be productive.

It isn't always easy to put our own experiences to one side, especially if those experiences have been particularly upsetting, but we need to be careful not to judge unfairly and project what we've been through and feel, onto others.

Holyhannah all communication is communication. It might not come in a form you like but the message is what is important. If someone takes the time and trouble to sit down and try in their own way to help, then that's what they are doing. Unless we want to just ostrasise anyone who has feelings and emotions or personal understanding. Which would obviously be silly because it's often the people who have understanding from being on the other side of the situation who can really help you find some clarity and see how your own behaviour could have impacted the situation.

Its not possible to always communicate ideas in a way that causes zero offence.

It is easy to say, I have decided to be so offended by your tone that I will just chuck your advice in the bin so I can pretend I didn't hear it and don't need to self reflect and work on myself.

Of course we know this more than most having parents who ignored the message no matter what form it came in.

* it's often the people who have understanding from being on the other side of the situation who can really help you find some clarity and see how your own behaviour could have impacted the situation.*

That is very true.

Its not possible to always communicate ideas in a way that causes zero offence.

That is also true and is also NOT was being suggested in my post.

There ARE ways to communicate that are less likely to cause offence to people who may be struggling to be open to advice and to listening. Less likely seems a good way to go and judging by many of your posts Starblaze I think you quite often go for a style that is less likely to cause offence and more likely to get someone listening.

It is easy to say, I have decided to be so offended by your tone that I will just chuck your advice in the bin so I can pretend I didn't hear it and don't need to self reflect and work on myself.

Yes it is ...and even easier if the style of posting exacerbates that tendency in someone!

Unless we want to just ostrasise anyone who has feelings and emotions or personal understanding

That was not being suggested either!!

I sometimes wonder if anybody reads other people’s posts! Six or so pages after the poster said she’d not be posting again, and was obviously unhappy with the replies, people were still giving their opinions! The daughter in law was the visitor in this case, but somebody said no wonder she wanted to lie down, with three children and house guests!

Yes the poster has gone Daddima. However as posts often raise various issues that others are interested in or that are relevant to their own situation, threads sometimes continue regardless.

Of course we know this more than most having had parents who ignored the message no matter what form it came in.

I strongly disagree with this generalised statement. I can see how it applies from the perspective of an EAC but not from the perspective of an EP. It implies that EP's never listen to messages from their EAC, and negates the fact that some EP's are never given messages/reasons for their estrangement.

Unless we want to just ostracise anyone who has feelings and emotions or personal understanding well this applies to EP's with regard to EAC and EAC with regard to EP's.

As you've said Madgran threads continue even when the OP appears to have left.

Starblaze

Of course we know this more than most having parents who ignored the message no matter what form it came in.

This comment was meant for you Holyhannah forgot your name when I added it to the first

I still regard this as an unhelpful generalisation. Of course EAC who post on GN have had completely different experiences to the EP's who post.

EP's have had completely different experiences to EAC. We can only learn from and help one another if we respect those differences and accept what we are being told is the truthful retelling of what we've been subjected too.

Starblaze -- I agree. I have yet to meet an EP, my own included, that is any kind of receptive to any theme that includes, "You might be part of the issue."

If you high-light behaviors and attitudes that are problematic? You are being mean/cruel... If you explain that the parental behavior is the same that lead to you walking away? Our view is 'tainted' and an "agenda" and we just dislike all EP's: fact -- I don't dislike all EP's -- just the ones that are red-flag wavers who refuse to see themselves at least as part of their relationship issues...

"It is easy to say, I have decided to be so offended by your tone that I will just chuck your advice in the bin so I can pretend I didn't hear it and don't need to self reflect and work on myself."

There is NO WAY to politely and without offense say to someone, "You are a negative and toxic individual who no matter how much/what people do you, for it is not only never good enough you make people feel like crap for everything. Your company is not enjoyable and the only person who can change your behavior/attitude is YOU. Until then? Bye. Oh and an apology for your past abuse would be an awesome 'bonus'..."

As I tried to illustrate with my example, it's basically impossible to break through the 'barriers' of high-conflict individuals.

Holyhannah everyone who is involved in the issue is a part of the issue lol

No one is perfect, for example: I am not estranged because of all the horrible situations with my mum. Even the worst, most painful issues, perhaps if she wasn't an abuser there could be a reason I could understand. There wasn't in my case but there may be in others... I am estranged from my mum because she lied about her mistakes, denied them or twisted it around to be my fault which nearly drove me to a full breakdown in the end.

No one in any relationship is perfect and most people don't expect perfect. Just for them to love us enough to be accountable and regret hurting us as we regret hurting those we are supposed to love.

Projecting perfection was my mums priority, so emotional punchbag me didn't stand a chance. Put all her negative on me so she could function otherwise with everyone else. Made herself a whole list of excuses starting from newborn me who cried too much and went from there. Good Times.

As I said, you and I have both learnt that no matter how we try to explain, we aren't heard by our estranged parents (before estrangement). That's just how it is.

There is NO WAY to politely and without offense say to someone, "You are a negative and toxic individual who no matter how much/what people do you, for it is not only never good enough you make people feel like crap for everything. Your company is not enjoyable and the only person who can change your behavior/attitude is YOU. Until then? Bye. Oh and an apology for your past abuse would be an awesome 'bonus'..."

Well no there isnt!

But that was not the context of the comment on posting/giving hard messages on threads as has already been explained! I wont bother to repeat my last comments, up thread. I aldo won't keep bothering to point out context ..it gets boring for me and everyone else!

Starblaze -- I think what some can't grasp is that when I said, "There is NO WAY to politely and without offense say to someone, "You are a negative and toxic individual who no matter how much/what people do you, for it is not only never good enough you make people feel like crap for everything. Your company is not enjoyable and the only person who can change your behavior/attitude is YOU. Until then? Bye. Oh and an apology for your past abuse would be an awesome 'bonus'..."..." OBVIOUSLY, as most seem to agree, there's no 'good way' to say THAT... Child abuse victims are never going to be so blunt because most of Us are too traumatized and terrified of our abusers to dare 'talk-back'/state anything so truthfully/succinctly.

SO We try the 'gentle approach' which usually begins with, "I love you 'mom' but..." and as soon as WE say 'but' they shut down because they know it will end with THEY might have to accept a truth/fact/'reality' (even if it's in Our 'imaginations'/made up) that conflicts with their own...

Nobody starts with the blunt/harsh example I provided, however, when you repeat the same cycle of denial and "trying to be 'nice'..." which usually leads to WORSE consequences for the victim/You, it becomes clear that THAT is part of the dysfunction you ran from... And until You realize 'it', that YOU are a participant in the dysfunction (just by being born into it) You can't begin to heal AND stop your own crap aka real 'bad' behavior and NOT the projection from an abuser...

When you are taught ALL your behavior is 'wrong' how do you know/learn what is really You being bad and what your abuser perceives as your 'bad'? Which is EVERYTHING. A child doesn't know BUT an abuser expects their victim should and if their victim cannot? Well, it's their victims 'fault' for being weaker...

Our truth/reality IS We understand and believe EP's 100% when they say, "Well, I was abused as a child as well!" That's how the cycle works... Then the EP moves on to the dysfunctional thought of, "But it didn't affect ME and I got over 'it'!" Me -- "Well, if one or more of your children have estranged from you? I am guessing You are NOT as healthy as you think you are and your child(ren) would probably agree with Me. Which in the 'dysfunctional world' means I am automatically wrong as well."

Starblaze -- I should add "it becomes clear that THAT is part of the dysfunction you ran from... And until You realize 'it', that YOU are a participant in the dysfunction..." is a key line.

The moment I realize I AM doing that now/repeating cycles? I stop. And then I practice what I preach/demonstrate what I say...

It definitely did affect me, my ability to form relationships and my parenting Holyhannah and I constantly work to be better. I have great understanding children who know I screw up sometimes but know I am horrified when I do and will make it right always.

Its incredibly difficult still to deal with people who won't allow you a voice and try to shut you down with various excuses, accusing you of getting off topic or simply deliberately misunderstanding you. It's worth the effort though for those who can be helped and ultimately live a happier life with time

Not sure why this thread that's about relationships with d's.i.l. appears to have morphed into a thread about parental estrangement, when the OP isn't estranged from her son.

There are other threads where this is discussed and it looks as if this one is at the risk of being derailed which is a shame.

I recognise the "misunderstanding" but when it happens to me I assume it's because I'm not explaining myself clearly enough or because someone has missed an explanation rather than it is deliberate!

I shall now consider that as a possibility as well in terms of deliberately being misunderstood and posts deliberately being ignored.

Things have been very tense in last couple of years in many families due to massive differences of 'political' opinion. I have found myself walking away at times in order not to fall out because of this, and go for a walk or read in a quiet corner.

I know from discussions with others that they have done the same- and have often made excuses not to visit or have visits - to avoid a big fall out that would be hard to mend. Could your DIL perhaps be doing the same?

biba70 -- I agree. Although politics are not the only subject that could lead to those feelings.

I have no issue with discussing religion so long as no one tells Me my religion is 'wrong' and isn't actively trying to recruit Me to their 'correct' religion.

If someone insists on doing that, what choice are you left with? You can tell the other person to STFU or you can walk away... Or you can just blindly agree with them at the cost of your own feelings.

Refusing to engage with someone is the least abusive thing a person can do to avoid inevitable conflict. Maybe that is the case with OP and maybe not...

My mum has decided differences of opinion are the reason we are estranged, because the real reasons we are estranged have been dismissed (thrown in the bin).

I get a lot of emails saying it's not OK for me to drop her because we have different opinions. It's literally not a problem for me.

I however, preferred not to talk about subjects like that with my mum and would explain that I just wanted to enjoy our time together. She preferred I should sit silent and listen to all her very important opinions.

My daughter once nearly got hit by a swing because I tried to hurry away from mum while she was telling me her very important opinion instead of showing any interest in her grand children on our less than once yearly day out together. She left nail marks in my arm trying to hold me next to her.

She literally shouted after me as I ran from the bench with zero awareness of why I would suddenly run off. Even after, no concern for her granddaughter or her role in jeopardising her safety.

I really, honestly, truly don't and never have minded different opinions on anything.

I just reserve the right, being of my own sound mind to have my own opinions or not have discussions about these things when I'm trying to spend quality time with my family.