95yr old frail stubborn mother

No.

No it's not up to the kids.
No I don't make the rules.

I gave you the facts of what happens by law, but the wobbly line is absolutely "not my circus and not my monkeys."

No what?

Are you denying that in many cases, that line is very fine and wobbly, and not at all clear cut?

DaisyAnne

Fleurpepper

OnwardandUpward

They do Fleurpepper, as long as they have capacity to make those decisions.

If they lose capacity and only then, is when they lack the capacity to make the best decisions for themselves anymore and that is when it becomes a Safeguarding matter . Then, and only then, decisions must be made in their best interests.

And yet- that is a very fine and wobbly line. Who decides when that line is crossed. If someone decides to live in squalid conditions, which would be considered by others not to be 'good' decisions- but fully compos mentis and aware of risks, of say, falling over, not being discovered immediately, being cold or not washed as often as perhaps we would deem adequate- at what stage do we have the right to say 'you are not making good decisions'? People have the right to make the 'wrong' decisions all their lives, why should that choice be denied in old age.

I am not being flippant. But we have come across many cases where the very question became the reality. Should the doctor act against the patient's wishes, because his/her children decide the parent is not making 'good decisions' according to their standards?

I think you have put that very well Fleurpepper.

No, the Dr should act professionally within the standards of the Mental Capacity Act.

They will then know whether the person has the capacity to choose to make a bad decision for themselves or whether the person has lost capacity and reasoning skills to make good decisions for themselves (therefore needing Safeguarding)

What the children want does not factor in a medical decision about whether someone has Capacity or a Safeguarding decision. No one except a professional can make that assessment, though we may question whether an assessment needs to be made.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/making-decisions-for-someone-else/mental-capacity-act/

Fleurpepper

OnwardandUpward

They do Fleurpepper, as long as they have capacity to make those decisions.

If they lose capacity and only then, is when they lack the capacity to make the best decisions for themselves anymore and that is when it becomes a Safeguarding matter . Then, and only then, decisions must be made in their best interests.

And yet- that is a very fine and wobbly line. Who decides when that line is crossed. If someone decides to live in squalid conditions, which would be considered by others not to be 'good' decisions- but fully compos mentis and aware of risks, of say, falling over, not being discovered immediately, being cold or not washed as often as perhaps we would deem adequate- at what stage do we have the right to say 'you are not making good decisions'? People have the right to make the 'wrong' decisions all their lives, why should that choice be denied in old age.

I am not being flippant. But we have come across many cases where the very question became the reality. Should the doctor act against the patient's wishes, because his/her children decide the parent is not making 'good decisions' according to their standards?

I think you have put that very well Fleurpepper.

WDYS

Seems free speech is not allowed on Gransnet watch this one being deleted as proof

This one is not accusing other members or things GNHQ doesn't allow you to, so I expect it will remain. Free speech is allowed. The guidelines tell you what isn't.

VB000

Agree - I really sympathise with all the health problems that the OP had, but mentioning Covid as a reason not to visit would not be accepted in a court of law. In summer 2021, my neighbours had a wedding reception for 80 guests, so surely the OP or her husband/son could have visited then, if not before, or made arrangements?

I agree she may have had problems travelling, but feel sure that she would have mentioned it!

Care homes round here are £5-6k a month, something to bear in mind as well!

Me too.

But upon hearing that DM could not cope it would have been the right thing to phone Social Services and ask them to assess her so she could get the right help. That way, OP could have been available by phone to support and advise. It might have prevented the neighbour realising there was a crisis and stepping in.

Although, it is always easier to look back with hindsight, isn't it.

I still think it would be a good idea to get Social Services to do an Assessment of Needs for Mother to see what care she actually needs and make sure it's put in place. The neighbour's help may not be appropriate if it was assessed that she needed more help? I do also think OP could do with a Needs Assessment from Social Services to make sure she is getting all the care she needs and any other help she may be entitled to.

WDYS: As a presumably new poster, (I don't see you in the Search facility), are the rules of engagement here becoming a little clearer?🤔

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Agree - I really sympathise with all the health problems that the OP had, but mentioning Covid as a reason not to visit would not be accepted in a court of law. In summer 2021, my neighbours had a wedding reception for 80 guests, so surely the OP or her husband/son could have visited then, if not before, or made arrangements?

I agree she may have had problems travelling, but feel sure that she would have mentioned it!

Care homes round here are £5-6k a month, something to bear in mind as well!

As a retired nurse WDYS, if you read the OP’s very nasty post listing the health problems she has suffered, and take into account her perhaps over-emphasis on covid restrictions and the fact that she has a husband, do you believe there was no time during during a period of three years that she could have visited her mother with her husband’s assistance or (again with her husband’s assistance) made arrangements for her mother’s care and wellbeing which would have limited reliance on the neighbour? Three years is a very long time isn’t it?

You all make judgements on a situation you do not really know properly. Heartless attitudes by some of you. Just pause for a moment can you imagine what it must have been like for someone aged 70 to have TWO broken arms and a fractured spine. Unable to eat or do personal care. Try wearing casts for three months not a party. No doubt one of the thoughtless ones will report because someone dares to challenge you. MOnica is the only one who can see sense.

What if there was a next door neighbour who you had been helping in lockdown but they needed full time care and didnt have money to pay you, but said they would leave the house?

What if you were short of money because the elderly person owed you so much money for shopping bought but could never pay you?

I'm not saying its right, but there could be reasons why the mother thinks the neighbour deserves this, just as much as it could be the neighbour taking advantage. Only the two of them know. It could also be that the neighbour has been extremely attentive and the mother wishes to reward her, not her daughter who has been hands off because the mother doesn't understand what the daughter has been going through?

I think it will be hard to get to the bottom of it, but understand why it's necessary. Just saying that if you put yourself in the mother's shoes with no one to call on except the neighbour- how many of us would want to keep that good will at any means? And, I know from experience from getting shopping in for the elderly, very often they do not have the money to pay for it. Happy to let that one go because I can, but not everyone can afford to.

Hetty makes the very valid point that if you cannot visit you make suitable arrangements.

I am taking a precautionary approach. It is oh so easy to say if she can sit in a chair, she can sit in a car, that is nonsense. I have a friend at the moment, who can sit at home but needs to keep getting up and moving, but who cannot manage anything other than the shortest journey in a car - too shops and back but no further. Similarly when you are in hospital with a broken back and arms, it will be similarly difficult.

I would always give the benifit of the doubt until proven otherwise and certainly not jump to judgement with the limited information we have , as so many of you are doing.

Although I'm suspicious of the neighbour's actions, I'm far more alarmed by the daughter's neglect, inaction - and negative, uncaring attitude.

If you cannot visit and care, you make suitable arrangements, plan, check and liaise with hospital, home and carers - surely? A forty minute journey is short, so, if you can sit in a chair, you can sit in a car.

I've seen too many examples of 'caring' relatives popping up suddenly, from nowhere, with pound signs in their eyes, when a frail elderly person nears their demise. They expect an inheritance, simply because they're related. Shameful!

If any of us had a neighbour who was in such a plight it's easy to see how we might have helped, but we wouldn't have expected to exclude the neighbour's own child, surely. Or to inherit property... unless the Mother has required hours and hours of help so the neighbour has had to turn down paying work or if the neighbour could not get back the money for shopping , for example. Even if she was POA I don't agree with leaving the child out or inheriting all the property even if Mum did owe the neighbour money.

Im interested to see how this can be sorted out.

Germanshepherdsmum

For three years MOnica? Her own mother. Christmases, birthdays etc? How was the mother to buy food, pay bills (she can’t see or write well)?

Indeed!

For three years MOnica? Her own mother. Christmases, birthdays etc? How was the mother to buy food, pay bills (she can’t see or write well)?

But my inclination in cases like this is to start to look at the case to see if there is evidence for abuse, before anything else. Even if the OP has not kept close contact, the neighbour seems to have taken actions aimed at excluding her - and that is always a suspicious action

And to be honest, when I am under any stress, I struggle to keep up contact with other people, even those quite close and I have seen that in other people as well.

The OP, with the injuries she had, may have struggled mentally as well.

What caused me to change my mind was OP’s statement that she had not seen her mother for three years. Yes, she had suffered injury and illness but she also made much of covid restrictions. We all took tests before seeing vulnerable people. She has a husband. Not one opportunity to visit in three years? I don’t buy that. And ‘keeping in touch by phone’ can mean anything. If it was daily or weekly I believe she would have said so.

I quite agree O&U, but there are elements of the OPs story that have similarities with many elder abuse cases, especially those involving financial abuse.

The OP needs to investigate this, and this is best done after getting advice from organisations that can advise on this subject. This is also why GSM suggested that she contact a solicitor.

If everything is all above board, she can start to take the care of her mother's affairs back into her own hands. She has looked after them for years and knows them best. She can thank the neighbour and get to know her.

But I have seen enough of these cases, to know that those who are abusing someone financially are very good as making sure that exactly what they are doing is well hidden, under the guise of the good neighbour, caring son, dutiful daughter.

It never hurts to check.

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The issue is a person (it could be any of us) is injured and disabled so cannot visit elderly Mum, who was fine at the time- however at some point Mum needed help and a neighbour stepped in. Mum wanted to reward the neighbour, changed will etc.

It is a bit troubling, but it could definitely legally happen to any of us if we were not able to visit a parent. Even if we visited our parent every single day of our lives, they could Still legally decide to leave their possessions or their home to someone else- just because it's theirs to do what they choose with.

I'd be interested to see how this can be proved or resolved.

The dead ringer that op and her mom have a broken strained relationship is the way that the mother responds and reacts to her husband, are in correlation to the way she responds to her daughter.

Totally different

paininthearse475 I am with pinkcosmos this sounds like elder abuse and it is a crime.

Here are a list of actions you can take
1) Ring Action on Elder Abuse www.thenationalcareline.org/ They have a helpline 0800 0699 784 Explain your problem and they should be able to tell you what you can do.

2) Ring your local branch of Age UK and ask to speak to the Information department.

3) You could ring social services and assert your right as next of kin and make it clear that you are and always have been involved with your mother's care.

4)In extremis ring the police.

Forget about the will, for the time being, what you need to concentrate on is the neighbour's actions in excluding you from dealing with your mother's affairs. This means making sure that the home know that they should always contact you first in anything to do with your mother. Make this clear to Social Services as well.

What is happening to you andyour mother is far too common. But it is up to you to take action.

From what you say, I think your mother might be considered not to have full capacity to make decisions for herself. It might be worth contacting a solicitor about applying for a Power of Attorney. In this case your mother would need to be assessed by a doctor as to whether she was capable of making a fully informed decision on her own part. If not you make an application through the Court of Protection, let a solicitor handle this. If you get this, you then have full responisbility for your other's affairs and the neighbour is excluded.

Perhaps GSM can advise as to whether I have got all this right.

The first thing to do is to ring that helpline, 0800 0699 784 and talk the situation through with them. Make sure you have a pad of paper and a pen when you speak to them so that you can note down everything they tell you to do.