Petition: Give legal right of contact between grandchildren and grandparents

DiamondLily, awful murder of that little girl. The key reason behind the return seems to have been the successful appeal by he father on his conviction for shaking her as a 6 month old baby. Convictions for that kind of injury are not easy as you’ll be aware. That said, this brute had convictions alongside a very worrying psychiatric report. That should have been enough for the family court to maintain her placement with grandparents. Also, private. Profit making sw agencies

I will not sign this petition.

I do not think grandparents should have any 'rights' whatsoever to see or interact with their grandchildren.

Who is to say that grand children would tell grand parents about problems at home, or even that grand parents would respond appropriately. Children see plenty of other adults, who they could talk to and could well be better placed to notice signs of neglect, abuse or any other harm coming to them. Teachers, nursery staff, nurses, doctors, social workers. There is nothing special about grandparents in that situation.

I wouldn't sign it as it would cause such trouble. The child comes first. I never tried it as my gd had good parents and a good life, if on the other hand my gd had been abused or neglected in any way I would have sold my house anything to rescue her.
It’s not an automatic right to see gp, some could be dreadful people as are some mothers and fathers, several children are killed at the hands of cruel parents, they are very much in the minority, a tiny percentage. In everyday life it’s different, estrangement seems to happen more as a form of control, in which case we have to give our gc up and hope one day they might make contact, having missed out on all the joys of their childhood, there’s no winners.

These grandparents were first of all given custody of their baby granddaughter.

The courts returned the little girl to her parents, despite red flags everywhere. Her grandparents and others warned of the risks,

No lockdown, no Covid. The courts just went with “parents are best”.

Ellie was killed by her parents, age 6.

Which proves parents aren’t always the best at decision making or anything else.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/10/ellie-butler-unlawfully-killed-inquest-ben-butler

Ok but 8 was talking specifically about emotional abuse in several comments and could not have known replies addressed to me saying I was incorrect were expanding to different types of abuse

But that doesn't change the fact that the law is as it is to keep children safe for very good reasons which I have tried to touch up on

It's not my opinion, it's the law

I would think so too fancypants and I don't know about you VS but I'm not just talking about emotional abuse, I'm talking about abuse in all of its forms.

I've posted more than once that a relationship between the GP and GC needs to be proved to have existed Grams in order for them to be successful in court.

Not arguing.
🙂

Either explain what the problem is or don't

Arguments don't interest me

VioletSky

I have Callistemon, it is factually correct and I don't see an issue with it or a reason to call me nasty...

Now then, I didn't, did I.

Read my post again. Properly.

Allsorts

VS you only see things from your point of view. I don’t agree with your comments.

Then you also only see things from your point of view

VS you only see things from your point of view. I don’t agree with your comments.

Posted before I was done - grandparents don’t and should exist. Under current law they can petition the courts to hear their case if they believe it would be harmful to the CHILD who does have rights not to see them. BUT. They must prove that an existing relationship exists And that the child is being harmed by keeping them away. All to often that is not the case , which a why it’s rare to hear of a court agreeing to be involved . Simply because a grandparent thinks know it then is beneficial doesn’t actually make it so. It would have to expressly harmful not to know you.

Smileless2012

They do maddy. For a GP to have any chance of success to obtain a contact order they need to prove that they've been a constant and regular person in that child's life.

If a parent is prepared to do everything the can to prevent the other parent being a part of their child's life, and we know that some do, what realistic chance do GP's have?

None. But as you’ve said under the law it’s about what’s best for rhe child. A child can’t miss a grandparent they’ve never had a relationship with. So not seeing them is not harmful to the child. Perhaps another reason why estranged adult children are so hesitant to try to work things out. One wouldn’t want to give the grandparents an in at telling the court how close they and grandchild are. “Grandparents rights “ are insane and shouldn’t exist period.

We are talking emotional abuse fancy that and most victims don't know it is happening (especially children) for a long time

VioletSky

Smileless2012

That goes against the Children Act AmberSpyglass which exists in part to protect children's rights.

Nan and granddad may pick up on their GC being abused VS even if they only see their GC once a month and could also be seen by the child as a safe adult they can confide in.

Unlikely

I would think it happens a lot.

I'm not saying it is a reason, across the board, why grandparents must be given access.
Just pointing out that there are cases (because Star is only one of many) where regular visits from relatives may have helped prevent what happened.

It's not even estrangement, in many cases; it is parents and partners going to extreme lengths to cover up what's happening.

No idea why, no idea why they don't just give the child to protective services.

I am not defending what happened, It is just true that the mum did not have a good start in life nor good influence, she was drinking with her mother often under the legal age. She was also badly beaten by her partner with a poor IQ being a very emotionally immature and easily led barely adult

I genuinely don't know how SS missed this one and how this was allowed to happen. It is a huge tragedy. The pandemic was a very dangerous time for many children and I can only think that potentially SS were working in very difficult conditions

If Star's mother's IQ was 70, then surely it would have made sense to have family input, too?

Yes Iam GP's in England do have the opportunity to apply to the family courts and I don't think anyone has said otherwise, but when they do so it's to ask the courts to recognise the rights their GC have.

Problems arise though when despite a court order, parents continue to deny access then the only recourse for the other parent or GP is to return to court. This is what happens when the adult in a position to control who the child can and cannot see, does not have the best interests of the child at heart.

Even with an IQ of 70, the mother must have known that the abuse that little girl was subjected too was unacceptable to say the least VS.

I agree Callistemon that this needs to be reviewed and looking at other countries to see if and how they manage this better would be a good starting point.

I do not agree that all GP's should have automatic access to their GC, but the law needs to be strong enough to uphold the ruling when made, that the parent(s) must make the child available to those GP's if a contact order has been given.

What's the point of children having the right to know extended family members if the law isn't enforced.

I'm not really interested in an argument if that is what is happening

I'll discuss but I'm not getting personal and aggressive over an Internet topic when I can just do something else instead

I have Callistemon, it is factually correct and I don't see an issue with it or a reason to call me nasty...

Iam64

I do genuinely believe that children are always the priority in these cases...

I do genuinely feel for grandparents who miss out on a loving family relationship when it isn't just...

Children just have to be the priority across the board

VioletSky

What is nasty about it? It's true, I studied it for my course

Read your own post.

What is nasty about it? It's true, I studied it for my course

VioletSky

Delila

I might have misunderstood what you’re saying VS, but as Stand Alone exists to support estranged adults I would guess that its statistic of 9 out of 10 might not necessarily represent the risks associated with grandparental involvement in general.

Yet people want to give people like my mother "automatic access" and want to argue that somehow more good than bad would come out of that situation?

Again the rights belong to the child and if a grandparent can prove themselves beneficial they can already go to court in this country. The caveat being they must prove themselves beneficial and the parents have the opportunity to dispute that

I’m regularly in disagreement with VioletSky but it’s important to acknowledge when we agree. VS is absolutely right to say that grandparents in England have the opportunities to apply to the Courts people have identified in France/Australia
In public law, the importance of grandparents/aunts etc is always considered. It’s not unusual for grandparents to be named in final care plans as having direct / indirect contact after final care plan. Long term foster carers often facilitate contact with grandparents, attend funerals etc.
In private law the welfare of the child remains central. Some family estrangements aren’t repairable. Some people are impossible. Sadly they,may be grandparents or parents.

Of course In the vast majority of families grandparents are doting and a real benefit all round. Sadly the occasional dreadful parent can’t see that. Other than mediation, therapeutic work, I don’t see how any legal process will change thath