If you are dealing with narcissism, let’s all help each other.

I don't think your Mum suffered Sago from everything you said. She seemed to have a pretty watertight personality.

The only thing you had going for you really as you grew up that her behaviour was so marked, so cruel, so obvious, so appalling

as you got older and she did that somehow you were able to stand back and see it for what it was as time went on, but it left its marks.

I know Ex did suffer, but that was the bi-polar at work. He did have suicidal thoughts in his life. In a way, the Narc tendencies and the grandiosity in self image were an escape from that dark side.

Wyllow3 The terminology is interesting, it has only just occurred to me how we use “suffering”.

I don’t believe for one second that my mother ever “suffered”

I would say you would suffer with bipolar and to a degree with BPD but I’m sure narcs don’t suffer.

It's OK butterandjam. I have PM'd you on that point. But to speak generally, if you come out of the situation reasonably intact, you are the stronger for it, as others will attest. And the other point, is to understand that there may be more going on than a straightforward Narc trait - ie complex other MH problems.

As regards Bi Polar, there are many effective drugs and people can live normal and loving lives* ^as long as they own their illness and are willing to seek help, but a person with a PD is more difficult to "Reach in and help"

And however difficult it was, it cannot be compared to being subject to it as a child, by a parent as Sago has described.

And I think its valuable to know that the friend who is constantly talking about themselves is possibly suffering from BPD, in as much as you may want to avoid them, but their intentions are not destructive to you.

Almost certainly many are suffering inside, as their actions turn people away, not to them.

I wish there was a like button

Wyllow3

Kindly, I suggest you re-read your post and consider whether it would be best to have it deleted by GN.

What it shows is a long history of personal vulnerability; and that you are still struggling.

In your own interest, think twice about exposing yourself so much.

Wyllow3 You are certainly well qualified to spot a narc.

I agree re BPD and NPD as to how there are some similarities, I have not been exposed to much bipolar disorder so cannot comment.

My Mother was a definite narc, delusions of grandeur, zero empathy, a manipulator a liar and very very cruel.

My father had narc tendencies but he was a violent bully first.

I wish as a teenager I had understood NPD, had I had more knowledge I would have gone NC.

No, a good psychologist is as qualified as a psychiatrist in practical terms. I know because I had one support me. The Psychiatrist would accept her recommendations as to using the label.

But these days we are so short of NHS psychiatrists that the number of people actually diagnosed as one is tiny.

I'm speaking as someone who is trained as a psychotherapist but I would not diagnose, tho I might notice.

The problem with all personality disorders is that they are very very hard to actually diagnose. Take a huge amount of time.

Personality disorders are not only extremely difficult to make

- but some lazy professionals slap a diagnosis of BPD (borderline personality disorder) -

(^I advise looking it up to see if the person you are concerned about show symptoms of inability to be empathic and selfishly only talks about themselves and cant^ "see" ^the other person - but isn't out to actually destroy others^):

when a situation is complex and the person is "difficult" and unresponsive to therapy
But doesn't do the damage a true Narcissist can.

Unless its crystal clear - and there are some clear examples above its probably better to say on the Narcissist spectrum, as the term is now so heavily used its in danger of being used for more trivial situations

My first marriage, happily, was with a man where we both had difficulties that eventually drove us apart amicably and fortunately my son was with him: we have both done a great deal of therapy and now are good friends and hopefully grandparents.

Then I met someone who has not only been diagnosed as on the spectrum but also hiding a lifelong diagnosis of Bi-Polar 1.

This is another possibly mistaken "narc" because in the very high mania if bi-polar if untreated the grandiosity and "using" others can also take place.

Oh my, he hid it well.

All the Narc spectrum stuff and at first of course the love of my life - at 60 -amazing fun, amazing sex, the lot, the gaslighting, the destructiveness as time went on, he liked it when I was depressed as he had control - the lies (3 different versions of his life events - found out afterwards from a friend of his you never ever lent him money...the hell of the year of the split up, some unbelievable stories - defrauding his mother, police in, police in to keep me safe:
I was classified as an adult on the SSD safeguarding register - I started making sound recordings of all events after police said you need proof.
Threats of suicide from him, leading me to have to act to get him accommodation as I knew the MH system - after chucked out of mums and the defrauding - police round with search and arrest warrants for me as accused of hiding him.

My ace card was that I owned the house, it was in my name and had been my money, so a deal was done under then just new divorce laws.

Looking back, I can see each Narc trait trick in the book - but subtle for so long.

It took over a year to extricate myself and I found out much later he was telling people (no one who could affect me in any way) that he was an abused husband. You cant make it up, because that was exactly what he had told me of a previous relationship he had had.

You should have seen the building manager of the supported flats he is in when I had to go round - and I had taken the precaution of taking my Safeguarding letter official proof - he was busy being Mr Charming again.

Bear with me. There has been cruel repeat of a kind.

After all this I fell into a depression, not surprisingly: when I sated coming out to me, I came back to a religious group (mild, everyday, not a cult) and cautiously saw several people for coffee out of the group - known from before of course.

and up comes another wolf in sheeps clothing. An elderly but in good health man decided he was attracted to me and did the Narc trait stuff, thoughtful, listening - tho nothing that would alert me seriously - and after one meeting 3 months later sexually assulted me . I had no interest in him whatsoever and had not shown any interest in him except as one amongst others who were kind as I returned.

I had had no idea he was going round other people saying how lonely he was after being a widow, getting with Mr charm lots of women who were fond of him and later could not believe me. Very, very manipulative

I had WhatsApps from significant people that it could be true, that I was provoking hostility, etc etc

He was one of those men who is a hero in th outside world but different personally, so again, people found it hard to think he could have done it.

So police again but Safeguarding in the organisation didnt know what to do, it was so unheard of..long story short - after months of agonising as I wanted him to really own what he had done in order to forgive and move on (went through Police Restorative Justice to try to get it)

But should have known better - people with these personalities are incapable of challenges to their egos, as under the ego is fragility....

Anyway more recently at last he was banned from the group.
the lack of support from Safeguarding was enormous, it never need have happed the way it did, and now policies being changed nationally so local Safeguarders have support and a blue print.

As you can imagine I am now full on Narc Trait alert. but as all have said, they can be so convincing, which is why we often find them in positions of huge power. but just be aware there are other P disorders that my appear to have Narc Traits but are not. Like someone who pesters you with them, them, and can't listen to you, but that doesn't necessarily make them have Narc Traits.

Yes if you have had close dealings with a narc they are easy to spot.

Learning how to deal with them is the hardest part.

It’s almost as though they all have a chip in their brain, they all have the same inbuilt formula to manipulate any situation.

They will lie, twist stories, become a victim and use people to do their bidding.

They will never admit to any flaw and everything that goes wrong is someone else’s fault.

There is just so.....much about this subject online.
Split up with one about three months ago. He is still friendly with his ex wife and he also has an on off partner ( whom I was not aware of when I met him on a dating site).
This 'partner' now lives about 70 miles away from him so they just spend weekends together. This gives him the freedom he needs during the week.
He moves through the cycle of love bomb, devalue, discard and then hoovers her back into his orbit again.
She of course thinks this is the course of true love, when in fact it's what is known as a trauma bond.
In fact, the drama Half a Man is a good example of how this bonding works.
The narc actually can have a knife in one hand and the band-aids in the other!!

I was embroiled in a close friendship with a Covert Narcissist who ticked every box on the list. Underhand, secretive but initially charming, helpful, caring yet [in retrospect] all the time looking for weak spots, triggers and vulnerabilities filing them for future put downs, sarcasm, gaslighting and demeaning my family members [they hadn't fallen for her 'charms'] and my past life.

Meantime [before I started to realise something was not right] silences if you had a different opinion, the inability to confront any problem without a tantrum or verbal rant and never accountable for upsetting others [always their fault], never apologising for anything was making me very uncomfortable. Her hatred for key people in her [past] life was unsettling.

The ultimate victim, she felt clearly superior to everyone, so special, and nothing and nobody was good enough. The sense of entitlement was staggering.

I got away when her mask had slipped enough for me to face the fact my mental health was sinking, I had been used and [verbally] abused. I'm still recovering and it's a long road back from an experience like that. Never again.

Sago

Narcs are real charmers, they will always have their followers who are enthralled to them and a few sceptics like yourselves Franbern and Dontcallmelove

It’s always wise to say nothing and watch, if you call out a narc they will do everything in their power to destroy you.

isn't this the truth and unfortunately if you've been abused by a narcissist you can spot one a mile off, in your social circles and in your work. It can become exhausting

Nanny27

I have to say I'm confused about the whole narcissist thing. Living with someone with such a personality trait must be horrendous and in my family we have one. But to be diagnosed with the actual disorder can only really be carried out by a psychologist.

You mean, by a psychiatrist.

Sago

Narcs are real charmers, they will always have their followers who are enthralled to them and a few sceptics like yourselves Franbern and Dontcallmelove

It’s always wise to say nothing and watch, if you call out a narc they will do everything in their power to destroy you.

It’s interesting what you say Sago. My friend’s family and ours are really close. Since this man came on the scene the daughter is always too busy to come over for a meal, to which he is also invited, she doesn’t go anywhere without him. I’m the only one of their friends that has sons and I think he realises that I’m not impressed by him, whereas other friends and their daughters are enthralled by him.

Narcs are real charmers, they will always have their followers who are enthralled to them and a few sceptics like yourselves Franbern and Dontcallmelove

It’s always wise to say nothing and watch, if you call out a narc they will do everything in their power to destroy you.

I suspect my friend’s daughter is engaged to a narcissist and I pray I’m wrong. This man love bombed the daughter and within a couple of weeks she was saying he was ‘the one’ (no judgement there, I was engaged to my DH 6weeks after our first date). My friend and her husband are in awe of him and think everything he does is original, loving, considerate etc. It goes beyond the normal reaction to your child’s husband to be. Their engagement was played out, videoed and a professional photographer was hiding in bushes. Family sitting in a restaurant waiting for the couple to arrive and announce their engagement, although they already knew as he had sent them the video of the proposal that had taken place an hour before. When asked what he would have done if she said no, his reply was, she would never say no. Thing is I can’t warm to him and I can’t say why. My son thinks he’s ok but other women are gradually also picking up vibes. Everything they do he puts himself in the centre of. Every family meal, outing, holiday he takes over with his ‘great personality’. I’m worried for my friend’s daughter as I love her as my own but I’m sure anything I say will not go down well.

A very elderly lady has joined one of my knitting groups. She tries to regale us with how very important she has always been in her former life. Seems to have delighted in local media coverage, several years ago, when she married a man 40 years her junior. Whatever subject the rest of us try to talk about, she managed to take over and talk about herself.

People are now actively, trying to keep as far from her end of the table as possible.

I did use the term Narcissist when talking to my very senior Mental Health professional daughter. She did tell me off for using this term - stating that she might have Narcissistic tendencies, but only a highly trained professional could actual decide whether or not she was a Narcissistic.

We are a very welcoming group, but after just a couple of months, are finding this Lady extremely difficult and divisive.

I had to look up grey rock, cannot say I agree with it. It could easily tip someone over the edge not getting the reaction they want. Walk away. They won't change. They get worse. Do it sooner than later as it all ends up the same, eventually you will break and have to get away. .

It was only when someone suggested I read up on narcissism that suddenly lightbulbs started going off in my head, so many of the now ex husband's behaviours were classic narcissistic behaviours. If only I'd known sooner. Things is assumed were just him were classic signs of narcissism.
He wouldn't ever have taken himself off to the doc because of his behaviour. After all it wasn't a problem for him, only for others round him. OP, read up on narcissistic behaviour. Read accounts of people who've been affected by narcissistic behaviour and if you start thinking, yes, rhat's happened to me, again and again, it doesn't matter that the person hasn't been diagnosed. If I wake up and my nose is running, my throat hurts, I'm sneezing, I've got a headache and a bit of a temperature, I think I've got a cold, I need to start doing things to help it get better and to help with the symptoms. I don't need to have the cold diagnosed. If I feel the prickling on my lip I think I'm coming down with a cold sore, and if I do nothing the sore usually bursts out, if I get the cream to help deal with it . I don't need a doctor to diagnose it
By their fruits shall you know them.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
I wish I'd known what I was dealing with a lot sooner, life would have been a lot easier, both with him and a handful of other people I've had to interact with in my working and personal life. I'm now less trusting in general, and have worked on my boundaries.
Read up about gaslighting too and other manipulative behaviours that seek to threaten your sanity. And how narcissists find their targets
Maybe write down things that happened, as much as you can remember, and add to it as you remember more. You will be able to see that the behaviour wasn't a one off, it was habitual and look at it from the outside, and learn to recognize the behaviours to help you spot them early. One thing I spotted as a red flag, very intense sharing far too soon, and love bombing. Writing things down helped me a lot, it brought lots of things to the surface, recognizing them, acknowledging them, like digging out bits of long buried shrapnel, or lancing an abscess, so that there was less and less to come to the surface and catch me out. The scars will always be there, but acknowledging it. talking about what happened/ thinking about it isn't so upsetting any more, I can think of something that happened, without getting upset and I can deal with it, mostly anyway.
As well as grey rock, there is also yellow rock, which has the basics of grey rock, but you are in a situation where you have to interact with someone. Narcissists enjoy any attention, they love to feel important to you. So you behave as grey rock but bring the matter in hand into the conversation as briefly and as businesslike as possible, don't let them try and get you to go beyond the matter in hand, just stick to the matter in hand. Politely. Not nastily, just not engaging apart from the necessary matter in hand

Sorry forgot the link!

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/grey-rock

Love59

I agree wholeheartedly and understand what you have been through. My son is now divorced from the narcissist but their children live mainly with her. He has survived but we’re really worried about the children. They’re too young to find out the truth about their mother but how can we save them from becoming her next victim?
Please, can we hear more about how to deal with this kind of situation?

Here is a link to the Greyrock method.
The key is not fuelling the fire.
There are other methods books etc but they are all based on the Greyrock principle.

It’s interesting that most posts are about mothers/ wives!! Husbands are narcissistic as well. I think I had both!!!!!!
My mother was no genuine support to me and I was pulled between them as they vied for supremely!!
They are both now deceased but managed to turn my only child against me - and I have no access with my 2 granddaughters!!
I’m genuinely unsure how you deal with someone who cares so little for others!! I thought I had done the best for my girl supported her was proud of her and always told her how much I loved her - and she acknowledged that but he still got to her after we separated!!!!!!!!!!
They lie, manipulate, play games, lean on some made up weakness, blame others!!
All you really can do as a grandparent is hang in there, be there, don’t ever be critical because they will work on that and show them a different type of love, honesty, truth and trust and keep your fingers crossed!!

I agree wholeheartedly and understand what you have been through. My son is now divorced from the narcissist but their children live mainly with her. He has survived but we’re really worried about the children. They’re too young to find out the truth about their mother but how can we save them from becoming her next victim?
Please, can we hear more about how to deal with this kind of situation?

Nanny27

I have to say I'm confused about the whole narcissist thing. Living with someone with such a personality trait must be horrendous and in my family we have one. But to be diagnosed with the actual disorder can only really be carried out by a psychologist.

You are right ,try telling a narc they may have a disorder is impossible, they are rarely diagnosed.
We are all amateur psychiatrists using our knowledge of NPD to diagnose.

Sadly, it is untreatable. You cannot make any headway with a person who has a superior intellect, is never wrong, and does not care what he or she does to anyone. We had such a person in our famly for some years and it was devastating. I do not use that word lightly. The trauma did not begin to go away until we heard that the person had died.

I have to say I'm confused about the whole narcissist thing. Living with someone with such a personality trait must be horrendous and in my family we have one. But to be diagnosed with the actual disorder can only really be carried out by a psychologist.