Teaching grandchildren Christian values

Thank you for such an interesting and informative post, PoppaRob.

JessM, I'm actually in Adelaide. The only mosque I've visited is the one in the city and it's very much an integrated congregation of all ethnic origins and is actually just as welcoming as any other religious congregation. The Lakemba mosque in Sydney's western suburbs is more in line with our media's ideal picture of aggressive Islam... a largely uneducated, multi-generationally unemployed Lebanese congregation complete with firebrand Imams advocating Shariah law. Of course the Muslim voting base in Australia is miniscule so most of us are more concerned about the increased influence by fundamentalist Christians and a resurgence of Catholicism spurred on by a couple of megalomaniacal firebrand archbishops over the political parties than a few votes from a faith group more influenced by the songs of Cat Stevens than the rantings of Osama bin Laden.

I was listening to Melvyn Bragg on 'In our Time' this morning and it was the history of Quakers. If I had any leaning towards a Christian religion, I think that would be a possibility.

That's true GN.

Our 'low' church doesn't have stuffy rules though. I can remember a lovely woman vicar at the Cong when I was little!

I have a suggestion for all our believers. If you do not agree with the stance your church adopts on such matters as contraception, abortion, women priests, homosexuality, methods of dealing with abusive clerics, etc. could you not start a grass-roots revolution and let the church leaders know how you feel? Irish Catholics have shown their feelings by leaving the church in droves.
Outsiders like myself can only lobby MPs to prevent antediluvian attitudes continuing to ruin lives. You could actually effect change. 'For evil to triumph it is only necessary that good men do nothing'.

Poppa I don't know about Melbourne but we have a lot of different flavours of Islam living around us in the UK. As diverse as Christians I'd say.
I am not knocking Wota - but I object that people with faiths think other people do not have the right to question - not criticise the individuals' faith but to question the ethical and moral stances. Catholicism is the classic case. It was the most powerful empire in the world and it still exercises huge influence in many countries. I cannot do anything other than see much of the vatican's behaviour as evil according my own belief system. Not the "faith" i.e. belief in God, but all the cultural/political rules the empire's rulers have invented to serve their own ends.

Actually God. The odd lightning bolt or two wouldn't go amiss round here sometimes.

Don't actually hit anybody. Just scare the socks off of 'em.

Don't go, jingle, I would miss our debates!

My God! That clip was from 1979 and it was like a male Gransnet!

(I think it shows there's not much point........!)

I am going to try and stay off all religion v the other lot threads from now on.

Sorry God. You're on your own.

popparob I probably have more respect for followers of Islam because they at least stick to their script!

There are no privileged positions in these debates, unless of course you speak on behalf of organised religion, in which case all bets are off and the expectation is that you'll be able to play the faith card and command respect and compliance. Drop the faith malarky and show me some proof and I might join your club, but without the appeal to faith religion has no more credibility than flying spaghetti monsters and orbiting teapots.

I probably have more respect for followers of Islam because they at least stick to their script! The broad spectrum of Christian beliefs ranges from those with a literal adherence to the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic texts describing the dreadful character of the god in its various manifestations through to cherry picked flavours of belief where the god is not omnipotent and is merely a generic and disinterested laissez faire god of love, as we've read from a contributor here.

I've always enjoyed this comment by John Cleese that arose when The Life Of Brian came out. His comment is at 6 minutes 23 seconds:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoM46jRJnHM

night night jens.

Goodnight jing

Sorry. I'm too tired for serious threads!

I can assure you Mishap that my mind is very open on the subject. I wish it wasn't.

It would be lovely to be sure.



[love and peace, man]

I always knew that they had clay feet! I think religion has got too formalised, ritualised and political.
Christ started the last supper as a simple meal with friends and asked them to do this in memory of him!
But I still think his teachings are a good moral base for living.
I believe in him. But I have no quarrel with other faiths if they follow a moral, non aggressive lifestyle that gives equal rights to ALL!
Unfortunately, faiths seek absolute power, and as we all know:- absolute power corrupts,:- absolutely!
Wow! That must be my longest one ever! I'm exhausted

I do acknowledge the evil done in the world by some people who profess to be Christians *Greatnan. In their case they aren't really Christian. It's just a banner they like to gather under. You can't be a Christian and hate people.

IYSWIM

If anybody derives hope and comfort from a religious belief, I am very happy for them, but I still do not believe that there is any kind of supernatural intelligence at work.
My sole concern in religious debate, apart from the intrinsic interest of it on a philosophical level, is that the laws of the land should not be influenced by the unprovable religious beliefs of one section - if you could prove your god existed you would not need faith! I would also like to see the corrupt influence of religions being curtailed and the oppression of women in the name of religion being lessened.
I notice that nobody rushes to the defence of their religion when I list some of the suffering that is being inflicted. Why not? If you agree that religion is being wrongly used, are you prepared to go on supporting your religious leaders? What would they have to do to make you lose faith in them? I have to say that the catholic church has lost a great deal of influence in Ireland in the wake of the child abuse scandal which says much for the intelligence of the Irish population. It must be very hard when you have been brought up to revere all priests and nuns to have to admit that they have feet of clay.

I agree with you Baggy and that does not stop ME believing what I want to! and may the force be with you!

Can only agree wholeheartedly with Greatnan et al.

People who have faith often seem to be very keen to defend their beliefs. Why shouldn't people who have no faith have the same rights to defend what they believe? Beliefs that are based on reason and evidence are just as valid as those which aren't.

If it's OK to 'knock' (i.e. argue about/discuss in a rational way) philosophical views other than religious ones — and it is — why wouldn't it be OK to do the same by religious ones? That's all the so-called knockers of religion are doing: trying to rationalise the ideas. It may be impossible but they have every right to try. And saying they are just knocking religion is a very negative way of looking at a process whose purpose is to improve the human condition and human understanding of difficult issues. Nobody does it just for the hell of it. They do it because they think it's important that people don't live under delusions.

Not knocking other people's faith jingl - I have tried to convey that many of my friends are believers. and I respect that. I do however have huge concerns about what is done in the name of religion, and I know that many believers share that concern.

I am like you and everyone else trying to find answers to the big questions, but I do not find them in religion and am indeed fearful of what religion can do. It would also be reasonable to argue that political systems based on non-religion have their faults too - viz the failed experiments in communism, which simply replicated the paternalism of many religions.

I am delighted that gransnet is able to debate these issues without rancour and to open minds in both directions.

I merely wanted the answer to a question that had puzzled me for almost 60 years.
It is not 'knocking religion' to state the facts about what is happening all over the world and I am surprised that Christians cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the evil that is being done in the name of their religion.