Teaching grandchildren Christian values

Surely while we continue to celebrate the Christian festivals children should be taught the meaning of Christmas and Easter.

I have only just joined the forum but I would like to add my thoughts to this interesting thread.
I was a devout Catholic until I was about 12 and started asking intelligent questions of the nuns at my convent school. Not only did I get no answers, I was told I was wicked for asking the questions. I became a humanist and so are my daughters and all my grandchidren. I have a feeling that it was the theatrical quality of Catholicism that attracted me - the candles, incense, plain song, vestments, stained glass windows - as post-war Salford was a very drab place.
I think it is insulting to imply that good morals can only be based on religious belief. I was a member of the Wirral Humanist Group in the 1970's and we asked for a meeting with the then MP, now Lord Hunt. We wanted to know why our children were not offered any alternative to RE lessons, other than sitting alone in the library. His answer was astounding in its arrogance and insensitivity - 'But how can you teach your children moral standards without religion'. I am afraid some of the posts I have just read here come perilousy close to that attitude.

I behave in a humane and considerate way because I want to be accepted by the society in which I live. Any social animal will be rejected by its fellows if it does not conform to the pack rules, and ejection from the pack would probably be fatal. Co-operation and mutual care have been strong survival factors in our evolution.

Is it suggested by Christians (which most people professing religious belief here seem to be) that people of other faiths or no faith cannot lead good and useful lives?

I won't talk about the horrific failings of the Catholic Church in dealing with the child abuse scandal, because there are just so many instances of most of the Christian sects abusing children in different ways, such as exportng them to Australia where they were often used a cheap labour or sex slaves. None of the major world religions treats women as equal to men and I cannot understand why any woman would be happy to be part of an organisation which consistently undervalues them.

Well and bravely said, greatnan. I agree with what you've said.

I think that children should be taught about religion, because it has shaped most cultures and the hisory of conflict in our world. But they should not be taught it as truth - because it is not - there are so many religions, each with their own version of the truth.
It is impossible to teach a child the truth of any one religion without being fundamentally dishonest, and I believe the most important thing you can do for a child is to be consistently honest with them.
Children do need to know that they can be good, thoughtful moral citizens without religion; and also that they are free to espouse a religion if that is what they wish.
We are organisms like any other on the world - we live, we die, we return to the cosmic soup. Our superior intelligence means that we carry bigger responsibilites and we can discharge these by teaching our children to be caring honest citizens of the world.
There was some very interesting research that found that certain areas of the brain tend towards religious and other supernatural belief, so that some people are genetically inclined to be believers and others are not - but we all have the capacity to be kind and honest.

"they should not be taught it as truth - because it is not "

How can you possibly be that sure?!

Prior the misogynist Judaic/christian/islamic religions led by men, the sexes were equal. There were gods and goddesses

Both Christians and Pagans have celebrated death and resurrection themes following the Spring Equinox for millennia. Most religious historians believe that many elements of the Christian observance of Easter were derived from earlier Pagan celebrations. Likewise Christmas and the other 1/4 days.

To many people have been killed in the name of "god" and the stupid thing is it is the same "god" just being interpreted by the different leaders for their own purposes.

In my opinion the rules of the "Judaic/christian/islamic" religions (when correctly interpreted and not used as propaganda) would mean a civilised society for all.

The thing that humans depend on for survival is the Sun, without it the earth does not exist so maybe worshipping the sun would be more appropriate.

It doesn't really matter what the 'truth' about life, death and the universe is, jings, whether there are gods or not. What matters is how people behave towards each other and the rest of life as we know it. On the whole and historically speaking, religion doesn't appear to have helped people to be 'good', nor is it necessary for people to have a religion for them to be 'good'. That's all we're saying.

Yes, Pandemonia is so right.

Everything Jesus said makes perfect sense; it's what men ( and I mean men) have done with these teachings over the centuries that is the problem.

However, I strongly feel we should not indoctrinate our young people; they will find out for themselves. They learn comparative religions at school; if nothing else the Bible is part of our literature and children need to know the stories, as they do, for example, Greek myths.

Forcing your views on others is wrong. Teach by example.

I do not think it is good for a poster to come on this thread and state categorically that religion is "not true". Say that you, personally, don't believe. That's fine. But don't put down other people's faith.

I try to live my life by holding this one sentence.

'First, do no harm.'

I have no religious beliefs whatsoever.

If I were to call myself anything, I would choose 'humanist'.

But why is it permissible for believers to state categorically that what they believe is true? Are they a protected species?

I am pleased to say that RE in most UK schools now does consist of teaching about all the great world religions, without any kind of indoctrination, apart of course from those 'academies' beloved of Tony Blair which are actually teaching creationism as being as valid a 'theory'' as evolution.

I don't think that anyone can state categorically that it is true Greatnan. For most Christians it is a matter of faith (and hope).

There is a time and a place for categorical statements, and perhaps this thread is not the best place if you read the original post.

Ariadne I can never understand why when we are teaching our children about Jesus, or imparting Christian values it's often called indoctrination? I wonder why this is. Surely it's no different from teaching them about other social values, relating to other people, right and wrong etc. We are teaching them something good which we know works and will equip them for life. As someone else said Britain is going down the tube because we have turned out backs on God. We must admit there could be some truth in that! Things are certainly not getting better since so many decided God wasn't necessary.
We have 2 delightful granddaughters and another one on the way. Our daughter and her husband are Christians too and are doing a wonderful job of bringing them up in the Christian faith. Of course, their daughters will choose as they get older whether it works for them or not, but they are being given a good start. They still have free will, that isn't being taken away from them.

It is called indoctrination because you are , presumably, teaching them as facts something which is only a belief. And I certainly do not admit that Britain is 'going down the tubes' because we have turned our back on god. In fact, things are a lot better than in the past when most people at least paid lip service to a belief in god. We don't routinely beat children, hang theives, permit domestic violence, vilify homosexuals - and most right-thinking people are appalled by the still-unravelling tale of clerical abuse.
I think my own daughters are also doing a wonderful job of bringing up their children without any belief in a supernatural being - and I find it unacceptable if anyone implies that in some way they are failing ther children.

If you look at the Ten Commandments, most of them combine to create a recipe for social cohesion in a society developing from a nomadic to a settled way of life - no killing, no stealing, no adultery, no coveting your neighbour's possessions or his wife... Of course if you believe they are god-given, it makes them it all the more vital to obey. Good move on Moses' part!

I have often been told on various forums that I must respect other people's beliefs. Well, many African men 'believe' that sex with a baby will protect them from Aids. Many 'deeply religious' fathers think it is right to marry their 12-year old daughters to 50-year old cousins, and also that if a girl disobeys it is right to murder her. Do you all respect those beliefs - or do you really mean I should respect your belief?

I couldn't agree more, Greatnan. My sons and their partners have no religion and the children are growing up just as responsible and sensitive as the ones who are regularly taken to church. 9-year-old GD is an outspoken atheist without any encouragement from me or her parents; her very thoughtful 7-year-old brother shows an interest in religion as it is taught in his school, equally without either encouragement or discouragement from us. Children's morality stems far more from parental and grandparental example than from any allegedly supernatural edicts.
However, you are right about the downright cruelty of some religious beliefs and I wonder if/how RE lessons in schools should tackle this.

No Greatnan, we are teaching our beliefs, after all it's the Christian faith, not fact. However, I do believe there is much evidence to confirm that faith. And I'm not suggesting that anyone is doing a dis-service to their children by not teaching them about God. All I am saying is what we did and our daughter is doing. I'm free to do that aren't I?

You are certainly entitled to teach your children your own beliefs - no doubt they will make up their own minds from their own experiences of life. What nobody is entitled to do is to imply that a belief in the Christian god is the only basis for bringing up children with good moral standards

I think you also need to teach your children about thehistory of your own beliefs, not just the "rules" to observe. With Christianity that would cover the long history of the Jews and their relationship with God, and the way the original simple beliefs and the sensible way of living together taught by Moses had become crusted over with elitism, prohibitions and so on, and the "new start" proposed by Jesus then brought back into focus the importance of inter-personal relationships.

He wanted people to look after one another - "Inasmuch as you do it [give food or clothing] to the least of my brethren, you do it to me" and to regard as a "neighbour" those of another region or belief as well as one's own. The Good Samaritan was a strange concept to those who heard the parable, as Samaritans were considered foreigners to be avoided or cursed, as Jews and Samaritans despised each other.

And when asked, to try to trip him up, which was the most important commandment, he did not pick any one of them, but said "Love thy God, and they neighbour as thyself" - which is the basis for all moral codes, with God left out for some, but the neighbours (all of them) left in.

The problems begin, not with him, but with the layers and layers of bureaucracy and human self-importance and fallibility which crystallised around the institution of the church, and the way the letter of the law becomes more important than the spirit.

Perhaps the real 'problem' here lies in the apparent assumption of the thread title that good values are Christian. They aren't. They are human values. I think it is the fact that many religious people claim to have (or that their religion has) better moral values than non-religious people that is the problem. Whatever the truth about gods is, it is also true that human moral values exist without religion of any kind or faith of any kind. Non-religious people naturally object when some people appear to claim, or at least to imply, otherwise.

Totally agree bagitha...but would, possibly add ...that often one religion sometimes seems to claim the moral high ground over another faith, not just over non-religious people.

However ...calling all pendants ...can you actually teach a belief?? isn't a 'belief' a leap of faith ...rather than knowledge or possibly understanding of a principle?

Just look at what a discussion about religion is doing to us, here on GN. As ever, it is proving to be a divisive force even among sincere, honest people.

Nothing wrong with divisions! There will never be complete agreement on any subject among a diverse group of people. Differences of opinion, or indeed belief, need not cause anything other than the expression of that difference in a civilised way, which is what we're doing.

Those who spout off most about their Christian values – and I am not talking about anyone on gransnet – seem to be the ones who display them least. Look at Tony Blair, who in spite of Alistair Cambell still did God, and born again George W. and the havoc they created in Iraq. Not much loving their enemy there. Look at the Anglican Church and its portfolio of shares and properties (not only churches and cathedrals) and the Vatican Bank – clearly storing up riches in heaven is not enough. I have no problem with teaching Christian values and probably both follow them myself and taught my daughter and grandchildren many of them without actually being a member of the Christian faith. No doubt many of those qualities we value, such as kindness, charity and honesty, are tenets of other faiths and no doubt they are as widely abused.