Teaching grandchildren Christian values

I have only just joined the forum but I would like to add my thoughts to this interesting thread.
I was a devout Catholic until I was about 12 and started asking intelligent questions of the nuns at my convent school. Not only did I get no answers, I was told I was wicked for asking the questions. I became a humanist and so are my daughters and all my grandchidren. I have a feeling that it was the theatrical quality of Catholicism that attracted me - the candles, incense, plain song, vestments, stained glass windows - as post-war Salford was a very drab place.
I think it is insulting to imply that good morals can only be based on religious belief. I was a member of the Wirral Humanist Group in the 1970's and we asked for a meeting with the then MP, now Lord Hunt. We wanted to know why our children were not offered any alternative to RE lessons, other than sitting alone in the library. His answer was astounding in its arrogance and insensitivity - 'But how can you teach your children moral standards without religion'. I am afraid some of the posts I have just read here come perilousy close to that attitude.

I behave in a humane and considerate way because I want to be accepted by the society in which I live. Any social animal will be rejected by its fellows if it does not conform to the pack rules, and ejection from the pack would probably be fatal. Co-operation and mutual care have been strong survival factors in our evolution.

Is it suggested by Christians (which most people professing religious belief here seem to be) that people of other faiths or no faith cannot lead good and useful lives?

I won't talk about the horrific failings of the Catholic Church in dealing with the child abuse scandal, because there are just so many instances of most of the Christian sects abusing children in different ways, such as exportng them to Australia where they were often used a cheap labour or sex slaves. None of the major world religions treats women as equal to men and I cannot understand why any woman would be happy to be part of an organisation which consistently undervalues them.

Surely while we continue to celebrate the Christian festivals children should be taught the meaning of Christmas and Easter.

joan I completely agree with you.

I'm glad that much of the Western world is highly secular, most people being indifferent to religion, but children still need to know a bit about the bible in order to understand a lot of literature, and to have enough biblical knowledge to sort out JWs and Mormons and others who try to sell them religion.

I would like to see philosophy and ethics taught to replace religion. I worry that society seems to have only one value - money.

children should be allowed to make their own choices as far as religion is concerned [when they are old enough] i was bought up with no religion, except what i learnt in school, to me this was just stories. i am a pagan now and have been since my teens. my 2 daughters are also pagans, not my influence, they made their own minds up when they grew up, my sons dont seem to have any preference. my dad once said that religion causes all the wars in the world, which made me realise why we had never been indoctrinated as children. sorry if the word indoctrinated upsets anyone,but this is how i feel.

Joan...I was about to post the same quotation. It makes perfect sense to me...

Lucyjordan - well said. Why would one teach a small child about someone who didn't exist unless she is told that she acquires information about this person on the same basis as learning about Zeus, or Thor or some other mythical being.

One gets tired of hearing about "Christian values" especially when you see people knocking seven bells out of each other in the name of religion, all over the world.

One can teach the difference between right and wrong and consideration for other people without having to bring religion into it.

I, too, think the bible is just another fairytale, and I certainly don't believe in heaven or hell. Please!! If people feel I'm being controversial, I'm sorry, but I've had some truly horrendous times in my life since I was a child and not once have I turned to religion to help me.

well said

certainly not!

PS
Dorsetpennt

Talking about 'insulting' reminded me of this quotation from the philosopher Stephen Weinberg:

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.

Dorsetpennt, I think we posted together. I was just replying to Baggy's post.

I was trying to remember the bit you have criticised me about: I posted it a month ago which is why I had forgotten. This is what you are cross about:

From what I've seen, Buddhism is also harmless. Most Jews are OK with religion too, except for the bother-causing ultra orthodox. Most of the religions of India seem OK. That leaves Islam. Best not to go there.

I didn't say 'Jews are OK', I said 'Jews are OK with their religion' - a totally different meaning. Most of the Jews I've met, and I'm part Jewish myself but without the Jewish experience, are just not that bothered about religious observance.

Re Islam: earlier I couldn't be bothered to talk about it, but I won't hide the fact that the way it is used to suppress people, especially women, in places like Afghanistan and Iran is loathsome.

Luckily there's not a lot of indoctrination going on in our culture: after all, we had the Enlightenment, and things got gradually better from then on.

But look at countries steeped in religious fundamentalism: they seem like horrible places to live, especially for a woman, and are usually very backward. In some Muslim countries, you can be killed for rejecting Islam. What sort of a basis for belief is that? Believe or else ! Ha!

Thank god I'm an atheist.

Joan I'm sure you feel you are broad minded but your views on 'Jews being ok' and for Islam 'best not to go there' were extremely narrow. ALL religions attract some form of fundementalism but most religions are moderate, we just hear about the worst side. The Koran, like the Bible, professes love of God and each other - however, like the Bible it is subjected to individual or group interpretation. So pieces from those books are drawn out and mis-used. All three main religions in the world worship the same God but in their own way - they all profess the 10 Commandments, biut in their own way. The fact that people mis-use that doesn't mean the religion is wrong, the person is wrong. So please don't say that religions like Judaism and Islam are just OK, it's insulting

monkeebeat, I agree that children need to be educated about religion so that they can make informed choices when they are old enough. Like you, I think it's important not to indoctrinate them as that reduces their ability to think for themselves.

My daughter and her husband are not believing Christians in the true sense of the word. They got married in a registry office and as a nod to me had my grand daughter blessed, not Baptised, in church.
They are not anti religion and are happy to join in church services for Christmas and Easter etc.
My grand daughter is quite curious about God and Jesus and the bible. She enjoys being in church and being involved. We go to church when she occasionally stays over.
I have enjoyed seeing her explore religion through books, chats, church visits and school activities (she attends a non denominational school)
I hope my input gives her what Christianity says about how we can live a good life but I want her to be open to ALL ideas now and choose her own path later.

Perhaps ignorance of the bible is a sign that, as a culture, we've moved on from that phase of our history.

Good points Joan. did you ever see an episode of the West Wing when the president (Christian but liberal) made mincemeat of a bunch of fundamentalists by making use of his knowledge of the Bible to counter their very selective use of Old Testament quotations? My favourite episode.

Yes, I agree, it is sad that lack of knowledge of Biblical texts disrupts the continuum of the Judaeo-Christian tradition in Literature and culture generally. Art and music are so steeped in it. Teaching literature, as I used to do, I could never take it for granted that students understood the many biblical references in Shakespeare.

That's pretty much my outlook, Annobel. Perhaps I'd be more inclined to say Christian-influenced Humanist.

I believe children should study parts of the bible as it contains some history and a lot of philosophy. Also, a lot of literature references the bible, and assumes some biblical knowledge. There is also the fact that it gives you some great arguments to use when the JWs or Mormons come a-knocking at your door, especially the bits in the bible that contradict each other.

I like to call myself a Christian Humanist which isn't as much of an oxymoron as it seems at first. I fully accept the Christian ethic as preached in the New Testament - the Sermon on the Mount, for example. I was educated with a good knowledge of the Bible and for many years was a communicant member of the Church of Scotland. I reckon I simply grew up and realised that the human species can do without supernatural support and stand on its own feet. Perhaps if they did this, there would be less conflict in the world.
My grandchildren are growing up able to think for themselves. None of us, parents or grandparents try in any way to indoctrinate them but I am more than willing to discuss with them any of the myths they have been told about in school.

Oh dear Kiwigran, if only it were that simple. I was brought up believing all that, and I'm afraid that for me it just didn't work. It was a lightbulb moment for me when someone pointed out that all each of us has is our own experience. At first I was shocked but on reflection, I saw that this is obvious. I have no problem respecting the changes brought about in some people's lives when they have an experience of conversion or any other so-called spiritual experience. What I do have a problem with is that so often these people see their way as the only way and try to force it on others.
If someone tells me that when they 'accepted Jesus' their lives changed for the better I am happy for them. I might seek an alternative explanation for the experience they describe as 'accepting Jesus'. But I don't doubt that something happened for them. Great. The world may well be a better place because of it.
But that's not my path and for some time now I have rejoiced in uncertainty and given up seeking certainty. I try not to judge others and I'd rather they didn't judge me. But I can also see that of course if you do believe your way is the only one, and a matter of heaven or hell, it is logical if annoying that you will try to persuade others.

I’ve followed this thread with great interest. I became a Christian in my teens and am still learning what that means in practice; I have lots of questions, doubts and new understandings to deal with. My children came to church with me for many years (couldn’t exactly leave them home alone ), but it was always made clear that faith is a personal choice and one that each individual has to decide for themselves. Consequently when they were thirteen my children were all advised that if they wished they could opt out. They were all taught to respect people regardless of race, religion, ethnicity etc. and we have always encouraged our children to mix with as wide a range of people as possible. I no longer ‘go to’ church, instead a group of like minded Christian explorers meet in my home each week; often we are joined by atheists and occasionally people of other faith groups. We do not think that Christians have a monopoly on goodness, kindness or generosity and we seek to find the best in all people; as we believe Jesus did.
My grandchildren and children understand that my faith is integral to who I am, but I would hope never to impose my choices on them. Although it has to be said that I often find myself living up to my children’s expectations when they ‘assume’ that Granny will buy bibles, Christian story books etc for their children.

I really do not like it that people push their children into any sort of religion. I think one should teach a child good values and right and wrong etc.... but a child needs to learn about everything and make up their own mind when they are old enough. They cannot really make a proper decision for themselves if they are brought up being told their parents' religion is the 'right' one !
My daughter's husband and MiL put so much pressure on my daughter to get the children baptised in the Catholic church it was ridiculous !
My daughter just flatly refused.

I know many 'religious' people who do not actually live a very christian life !

People's opinions don't help anyone especially children.
My brother is colour blind and just because he says something is blue when it is really red is just something he sees - it doesn't mean it is blue when it is absolutely red.
Same with Jesus and God. People can have all sorts of different views but if he exists - he exists. And the way I found Jesus was because I was sorry in the core of my being for something I had done, which for quite a while I had justified to myself because I didn't want to feel this almighty guilt. I found the Catholic Church a home to go to for it brings enormous healing and new life.

Yes Joan and Twizzle, very well put! I know some truly horrible people who are `churchgoers` and wouldn`t want to be involved in anything that would bring me near to their circle.

I first realised religion was not for me at the age of nine - at Sunday School, and now after a life of thinking and research I call myself a Humanist.

You know, these questions simply don't arise in most families. None of the grans I know would dream of getting involved in religion of any kind, and especially not involving the grandchildren. It isn't that they are atheists - I would call them non-theists: they don't give any of it a thought.

One gran, a close friend, was a catholic most of her life, even serving on the Parish Council, but about 15 years the church started going backwards, slowly easing away from the reforms of Vatican 2. At the same time she quietly stopped going to mass every week, then hardly ever went, then stopped, having removed herself from any church positions.

I think this sort of thing is happening all over, and the tighter the church squeezes out reform, the more parishioners slip away, and the less reason they find to come back.

Once gone, reason prevails, suspension of disbelief becomes less and less possible, and that's an end to it.