return to childhood religion

Or - he was cut down from the cross while still alive and healed by his friends...........

Or, he died, stayed dead, and myths arose when folks said they'd seen him. Could happen - just ask Elvis!

I have to agree with Kiwigran sorry PoppaRob, how do you know there is nothing after death, can you prove it? Science can't!
On the other hand Christians can 'prove' that there is everlasting life because Jesus conquered death and overcame the grave, it's wonderful news.....honest

Jesus death would be suicide if He had inflicted the wounds himself - but He did not. The wounds were inflicted by humanity ( and I say humanity, not specifically the Jews as some have done).....consequently He gave us access to the Father as we see the extent of the evil within us. The work of the Cross for humanity was/is massive, there are endless ways in which His death can save us, heal us, transform us etc etc. Those who acknowledge they cannot possibly cleanse themselves of this deep seated propensity for hatred and evil (we only have to look at our world today) and ask the Lord to exchange His perfection for their imperfection, can receive into themselves His perfect Spirit. This is no fairy tale. If it were, why would millions of people from every corner of the globe witness to this life changing relationship....we have come face to face with the person of Jesus Christ....there is no argument against that. You cannot tell me this has not happened to me...as you are not me.
Those who don't want to think on these things, I believe, cannot face
what is ugly in our human make-up and admit to actions they know to be
wrong. So it's easier to believe when they die there is nothing
(oblivion). You are making a terrible mistake.

Definitely an evolutionist happy to evolve from an early primate, and re the miles apart bit... All bar the everlasting life... before I was born there was nothing - after I die there'll be nothing.

If Jesus was a part of the Trinity then either the father part of him decided he had to die or the son part of him allowed himself to be killed = suicide. If he was a standalone saviour then he made a conscious decision to allow himself to be killed = suicide. Sorry, but that's just simple logic.

That picture of God is all wrong (perhaps mixed up with 'lesser gods) Jesus didn't commit suicide, He's God and God cannot die.
What interests me is that evolutionists (those who take it to the ultimate) would rather come from apes and think themselves animals with no future than believe they were created in love by a God who made them in His image and likeness. A God who is loving, merciful, gracious, but also just!
We are miles apart, I have hope, peace even in times of conflict and a wonderful everlasting life to look forward too...and you?

milliej, I'm sure you enjoy the comfort that your belief gives you, but please accept that other don't share that belief, and in my case I came to see the flaws in the belief system I was indoctrinated into as so vast that I have no place nor need for a god.

I read a quote some years ago that reduces christianity to it's fundamental parts as follows... "The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat fruit from a magical tree." Yes, you can dismember that description and take out the bits that don't work for you (eg. Adam and Eve) but to an enquiring mind if you start to pick and choose which bits are acceptable lterally and which are just allegorical then you've surely reduced the book to the point where it's just another book of fables and perhaps an instruction manual for either leading a good life or becoming a bullying psychopath or something in between. As an atheist I'm equal opportunity... your description of your god and the positive outcome you feel came from what was effectively the suicide of christ shows your christian background, but I'm equally atheistic about hinduism, islam, bhuddism, etc. You believe in just one god more than I do, so we're not so far apart really.

Didn't realise we had to many from the colonies here (joke!! ) In UK we don't have a 'Christian government and I personally would never vote for a Christian party - I can just imagine the fall out if/when something went wrong!! Crucify.....crucify....they'd be yelling for blood!
What i do believe is that we have many Christian politicians in all parties as well as atheists, Jews and Moslems and thats just right and proper.
What I don't comprehend is someone who has had Christianity in their youth and now is so adamant that their is no God? People make mistakes, people do bad and wrong things, but God....well.....He suffered and died to reconcile us back to Himself so.....for me thats such a blessed relief. I don't have to pretend or kill myself doing 'good works' because I can't buy my way into His presence, I just do what I do and depend on God's grace, love and mercy for my eternal resting place. Until the death bed, there is hope for everyone (even Prof. Dawkins

When the First Fleet arrived in 1778 they also believed in blood-letting and that washing would make you sick. It's a flawed argument to suggest that because a belief system was in a position of power 233 years ago that it is still both relevent and deserving of having power in a largely secular nation now.

Kiwigran, your beliefs are strong as are mine and neither of us are going to budge. I apologise to Frida for hijacking her original thread. My profile is public, so Kiwigran, if you'd like to discuss our beliefs further please send me a message.

I would suggest to you PoppaRob, that the majority of the men (and women) who founded the great country of Australia were Christians, and they brought all those Christian values and faithful, prayerful, intellectual thought to create a society (that you enjoy the freedoms of today), which is still living under the blessing of those prayers and foundational decisions. The same applies to America. You wish to live your life with no belief in a deity, you have the right to do that, but remember it was Christians who fought for the right for you to enjoy your secular life.

Yes, Kiwigran. What I'm afraid of is theocrats gaining any degree of political power based on mythology. If they wish to push their barrow to their followers I have no problem with that, but if their dogma has any effect on my secular life I find that extremely frightening. I'd like my political leaders to decide policy and legislate based on evidence based science and the simple rule of do unto others. You don't need a god to meet those criteria.

It's not so much a disbelief in a loving god as a disbelief in any god. I have no need for a god, and of course on the off chance that a god were to reveal that it does exist I'm sure it has no need for me, but I see no evidence for anything supernatural or paranormal in our wonderful cosmos.

I just get frustrated that people cannot see through the whole god thing. Sometimes I feel like the boy in the Danish fairy tale, 'The Emperor's New Clothes', being the only person who can see that there is nothing there.

But, these illusions seem to be an important part of the life of many people.

Oh and as for that Family First idiot - don't get me started!! The Assemblies of God are the nearest thing we have here to US style fundamentalism. I got invited to a Christmas Pageant they put on once. It was very entertaining, very slick and professional, but as I looked around at the congregation something felt very wrong. I couldn't put my finger on it, but later I realised - it was exclusively white! This country is the second most multicultural one in the world after Israel, but that lot are whiter than a KKK chapter. Scary, I thought.

Wow - for someone who believes he's an atheist (believes there is no loving God) you certainly seem to be afraid of something, to hate it so much.

Dawkins is just fighting back, as is his right. As others have said, he is scathing in his attacks on religion, but then again religion is fairly strident in its attempts to proselytise, twist or carefully select the words printed in their various "holy" books and generally heap scorn on anyone who disagrees with their take on their particular god.

I must admit I've become more of a pro-active atheist since the political party Family First (basically the political wing of the Pentecostal Assemblies of God church here in Australia) has started putting its nose into politics. 12 years of C of E indoctrination has given me the ammunition needed to discuss at least Christianity with their dullards who show up at shopping centres when an election looms, and every minute I spend refuting their ill-founded delusional dogma is a minute they don't get to spend trying to turn someone else to the dark side. I'm sure that grates with many people, but given how the christian fundamentalists taliban has have managed to have so much political power in the USA I think it's fair enough to fight back to keep religion out of politics in my country wherever possible.

I somehow don't think Dawkins will be remembered for his pronouncements 2000 years from now PoppaRob. I find it quite amusing that one man, Dawkins, can have such a huge ego as to presume to sweep away the thoughts, writings, teachings of millions of intelligent people (most with far more academic understanding of ancient scripture than himself) all over the world throughout that 2000 years, and have come to KNOW the presence and love of Jesus in their lives to be absolutely real. His conclusions about God from his interpretation of the Bible is so vitriolic, and shallow I would suggest there is some underlying reason for his obsession.

Quote - milliej--- I suggest you stop leaning too much on your own strength which may fail at some stage and then who or where will you turn? I also tried many other 'religions' and have found Christianity (my faith in Christ) to be real and true, haven't doubted that my decision to follow Him is the right one since I converted, 22 years ago. -- Unquote...

Just to add, every religion I entered, WERE all 'Christian' - and, as I said, eventually, I realised - AGAIN - my personal opinion that none of them were right in my eyes. There are also very personal reasons for why I turned away from any faith I ever had. I didn't just 'convert' - I was taught to pray, and to go to church by my Mother, from being approx 4 years of age. I was brought up in a Christian home, taught good values by my parents, and passed these on to my own children. Even though I now do not believe in religion, I still do believe that we make our own lives, and mistakes and should still be kind to people, and help those we can, in whatever way we can. Religion has nothing to do with it. It is, in my opinion, in how we are brought up, and how we are taught as children.

Dawkins may have a way with words but he's an radical atheist as zealous as some fundamental Christians! So he would say that wouldn't he? I've read his book, the God Delusion and he misquotes the bible!

You have to know your subject to be able to make a reasonable, logical and balanced judgement and Dawkins isn't a theologian so with all due respect to his vast knowledge of science how can he expound on theology?
I've also seen him give talks and his 'god' seems to be Darwin (a mere man!) .
We all have opinions and there are many scientists who disagree with Dawkins (and Darwin to a degree).
Most atheists/humanists/secularists think that there is nothing after physical death but how do they explain what millions of people, whether Christian or of other faiths call 'the spirit' in humankind? If we are only 'animals' is that an excuse for evil and bad behaviour? and if this is all there is, whats the point?

Oh, I'd forgotten that bit about God, PoppaRob. He's got a way with words, Dawkins!

I agree about people finding comfort in the ritual of church, together with the companionship and music. Also the prospect of eternal life is a comfort to many. And prayer helps a person focus, like meditation. They think about something, and when the answer suddenly comes, it is from God. We atheists simply cut out the middle man.

I take comfort in the fact we are all part of the cosmos, or like that song, we are stardust.

My parents were life long atheists, but sent us to Sunday School,so I know my bible, which is a great help when sorting out the JWs who come a-knocking at my door. They only sent us there to get some alone time: I reckon Sunday School was very influential in the propagation of the species.

I was brought up C of E but always had my doubts, then came Carl Sagan's TV series Cosmos and that was the start of my path to atheism. Before anyone jumps in, back in 1999 I had a major health scare and was told I would probably be dead within a couple of weeks, and I spent a night pondering the question of life, the universe and everything (and all I could come up with was 42 ). I had neither need nor justification for any sort of cosmic Jiminy Cricket to guide or nurture me. I was happy to return to the state I'd been in before I was born... ie. nothingness.

My dear old 88 year old Mum still goes to church occasionally, but even she says the rituals she grew up with changed and it just didn't seem the same, which makes me think maybe it's the ritual and sense of belonging that she was seeking, not the sense of the supernatural.

@milliej... It works for you that you find your religion fulfilling, and I'm not knocking that, but looking objectively at the bible I think you've taken the bits you like and that fit your vision of a loving god and ignored the rest. I agree with Dawkins: "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Hi Frida, can I suggest that before attending a local church you go on an Alpha Course or one called Exploring Christianity? These courses are set up to help people like you to discover (or in many cases re-discover) what the essence of Christianity is about. If then you do decide to join a local church you will have already made some contacts and If you don't it will be because you have made an informed decision.

I have run many Alpha Courses and made lots of lovely friends - some who have continued the journey into faith and others who came to the decision that, for varied reasons, churchgoing wasn't for them. Alpha is informal, usually starts with a meal together, and gives you an opportunity to ask questions relating to a short DVD presentation.
http://uk.alpha.org/

In any case, I'd be interested to know what you decide - keep us posted.

Rosannie, Good to hear some positive comments from the Catholic tradition, thanks for that! We all worship the same God whichever branch of the church we belong too! God bless you.

I'm sorry PamM but I think there are a few misconceptions in your post which I've come across before from people who either don't know much about the faith or go by hearsay!
The bible was handed down from the very first followers of Christ, Polycarp (AD 69-155) was a disciple of the apostle John who wrote the fourth gospel and other books of the New Testament and who knew Christ personally.
Such an important work would not have been left 'for hundreds of years' but it was not written as we have it now until the advent of the printing press!
There were many very knowledgeable scholars around well versed in the Torah or Old Testament and the new converts made a point of translating it from the Hebrew and Greek so that it was correct!
Some people also say (those who have perhaps read or heard more about the gospels) that the four versions - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are all different so how can they be true.
Easily, four men seeing things from their own perspective and writing from their own view point. That they were all alive at the time and made sure it was kept for future generations, makes it more logical to me, they do all tell the same story only emphasis different points as they saw them.
The bible would never have survived if it was 'a made up' story.
It has past the test of time and is the worlds best seller, with many scholars (not all necessarily Christian) taking long hours to verify the contents.
That person who died about 2000 years ago, is God, and is alive. Christians don't 'worship a dead God' but a living one.
I suggest you stop leaning too much on your own strength which may fail at some stage and then who or where will you turn? I also tried many other 'religions' and have found Christianity (my faith in Christ) to be real and true, haven't doubted that my decision to follow Him is the right one since I converted, 22 years ago.

I have been a member of a few different religions in my life, and now I have decided that I prefer not to belong to any, having found them all to be similar - 'Sunday preaching, Monday forgetting' theories. (This is my personal opinion and so don't shoot me down!) I once had a boss who was a 'supposed' catholic, attened church every Sunday, but he was the worst person I have ever worked for and he made life hell for those who worked in his shop.
I agree with Joan and others in what has been said against religion. I have been told of shocking abuse by monks, in schools, just because a child dared to ask a question about god.
The bible was written hundreds of years after the events, and therefore, stories were lost, changed, and intertwined with ones from thousands of years before. The bible has also been translated from the Greek, which makes me think that a lot of the stories in it have come from Greek myth, Horus etc.
I have decided to be 'agnostic, bordering on atheism'. I cannot believe, any more, that one person, who died over 2,000 years ago, can help me in any way - I am the only person who can do that, by living my life as best as I can and not by praying to someone who isn't there to listen. And, believe me, I tried that, for over 50 years of my life.

I'm a Catholic, taught in schools by a mix of nuns and 'civies' and fortunately never encountered abuse in my schools.
My faith was assigned by parents and childhood experience, I went against it, chose other paths that suited my desires at the time and always had my own mind.
Now I am grateful for a grounding that has given me good judgement, morals and a belief in my own and others 'goodness'.
Going to church because I choose to go, celebrating a faith with a community who welcome me unconditionally, and enjoying that feeling of belonging that Jesus saught to promote works for me.

Your right, children have been left to fend for themselves, no one is allowed to help steer them in the right direction. Consequently they believe their bad behaviour is okay and acceptable. We are in a very sad and dangerous situation in society, my heart grieves for teenagers today. I truly believe children want to be given boundaries and guidelines, they feel loved and valued. I've seen teenagers just blossom when they realise how much God loves them, they describe it as "coming home", which I think is just beautiful.

Fully agree Kiwigran the fact that people have used and abused faith (or should that be religion?) in the name of God doesn't make God a monster, it means that people are using it or God for the wrong reasons.
Where love, mercy, forgiveness, healing, caring, goodness, and other such things are seen, there is the love of God.
When I was a kid it was 'the norm' to use the strap or leather belt my dad had which was just used on the boys not the girls! Now we've gone to the other extreme and people are frightened to touch kids or even tell them off in many cases, and we have kids with no respect for authority or any discipline in many schools!
A balance is needed, one day, I believe, we will all stand before the throne of a just God and be held accountable for how we have lived our lives. That is something to bear in mind whether you have been abused or are an abuser!