Adam and Eve??

I'd choose a slow nihilistic death over believing in fairy tales...

I too am amazed Hetty 58, amazed that you choose to believe we are Just animals infesting the earth. We know beliefs are not Truths otherwise they wouldn’t be beliefs, but the beliefs we hold in our hearts can determine the lives we lead the hope and joy we experience, the search for beauty goodness and understanding in all of life, and so for me your beliefs would be a slow nihilistic death.

As ever, amazed at what people can believe. We're just animals, mammals of course, we've evolved and colonised (infested?) the Earth - and are busy destroying it.

Our mad sense of superiority loves to let us think we're somehow 'special', while our childish, total lack of responsibility requires a 'god' to take the lead - and the blame.

Whitewavemark2

Callistemon21

NASA:

Our story starts about 4.6 billion years ago, with a wispy cloud of stellar dust.
This cloud was part of a bigger cloud called a nebula.
At some point, the cloud collapsed—possibly because the shockwave of a nearby exploding star caused it to compress.
When it collapsed, it fell in on itself, creating a disk of material surrounding it.
Finally the pressure caused by the material was so great that hydrogen atoms began to fuse into helium, releasing a tremendous amount of energy. Our Sun was born!
Even though the Sun gobbled up more than 99% of all the stuff in this disk, there was still some material left over.
Bits of this material clumped together because of gravity. Big objects collided with bigger objects, forming still bigger objects. Finally some of these objects became big enough to be spheres—these spheres became planets and dwarf planets.
Rocky planets, like Earth, formed near the Sun, because icy and gaseous material couldn’t survive close to all that heat.
Gas and icy stuff collected further away, creating the gas and ice giants.
And like that, the solar system as we know it today was formed.

Genesis:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep

What made ancient people think that the Earth was once without form or void?

What made them realise it hadn't always been there?

I think the question needs asking from the other end.

God is omnis - therefore the world etc could not have existed before God.

I, however, am a humanist, so go with the latest scientific theory.

Did they come from another solar system?

Did superior beings from a higher intelligence seed the earth?

Are we an experiment?

Chestnut

Maybe the spirit of the Lord came down and told those people what to write. You cannot dispute where there is no evidence.

Maybe one of the many traditional creation stories from another culture is the true one. As you say, you can't dispute where there is no evidence.

But humans are curious and wonder about things. Wherever humans lived, they always told stories of their ancestors, including tales of why they were where they were. . If they had no evidence, they made deductions from what they saw and experienced. They used their hands to make bowls out of clay, spears, arrows and bows out of wood bone and stone, clothes out of skins, cloth by weaving fibres, so it would seem to them that a superior being must have made people (out of clay) and then made them live by using His own breath. They looked after their young and their weak and helpless, so the superior being must be looking after them and causing there to be food and shelter. They disciplined their young people for being antisocial and disobeying their parents and tribal leaders, so if they didn't obey the superior being as they would a father or a leader, He would punish them.

"The Big Bang theory says that the universe came into being from a single, unimaginably hot and dense point (aka, a singularity) more than 13 billion years ago. It didn't occur in an already existing space. Rather, it initiated the expansion—and cooling—of space itself." from Wikipedia
This explanation doesn't work for me.

Callistemon21

NASA:

Our story starts about 4.6 billion years ago, with a wispy cloud of stellar dust.
This cloud was part of a bigger cloud called a nebula.
At some point, the cloud collapsed—possibly because the shockwave of a nearby exploding star caused it to compress.
When it collapsed, it fell in on itself, creating a disk of material surrounding it.
Finally the pressure caused by the material was so great that hydrogen atoms began to fuse into helium, releasing a tremendous amount of energy. Our Sun was born!
Even though the Sun gobbled up more than 99% of all the stuff in this disk, there was still some material left over.
Bits of this material clumped together because of gravity. Big objects collided with bigger objects, forming still bigger objects. Finally some of these objects became big enough to be spheres—these spheres became planets and dwarf planets.
Rocky planets, like Earth, formed near the Sun, because icy and gaseous material couldn’t survive close to all that heat.
Gas and icy stuff collected further away, creating the gas and ice giants.
And like that, the solar system as we know it today was formed.

Genesis:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep

What made ancient people think that the Earth was once without form or void?

What made them realise it hadn't always been there?

I think the question needs asking from the other end.

God is omnis - therefore the world etc could not have existed before God.

I, however, am a humanist, so go with the latest scientific theory.

Lexisgranny

Though a church goer in my youth, but never particularly religious, I was very shocked when (many, many years ago) I read a book explaining how the miracles in the Bible were achieved. I wish I could remember what it was called, and could read it now to see if I have the same reaction.

I'd like to read that, Lexisgranny

NASA:

Our story starts about 4.6 billion years ago, with a wispy cloud of stellar dust.
This cloud was part of a bigger cloud called a nebula.
At some point, the cloud collapsed—possibly because the shockwave of a nearby exploding star caused it to compress.
When it collapsed, it fell in on itself, creating a disk of material surrounding it.
Finally the pressure caused by the material was so great that hydrogen atoms began to fuse into helium, releasing a tremendous amount of energy. Our Sun was born!
Even though the Sun gobbled up more than 99% of all the stuff in this disk, there was still some material left over.
Bits of this material clumped together because of gravity. Big objects collided with bigger objects, forming still bigger objects. Finally some of these objects became big enough to be spheres—these spheres became planets and dwarf planets.
Rocky planets, like Earth, formed near the Sun, because icy and gaseous material couldn’t survive close to all that heat.
Gas and icy stuff collected further away, creating the gas and ice giants.
And like that, the solar system as we know it today was formed.

Genesis:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep

What made ancient people think that the Earth was once without form or void?

What made them realise it hadn't always been there?

Though a church goer in my youth, but never particularly religious, I was very shocked when (many, many years ago) I read a book explaining how the miracles in the Bible were achieved. I wish I could remember what it was called, and could read it now to see if I have the same reaction.

Maybe the spirit of the Lord came down and told those people what to write. You cannot dispute where there is no evidence.

Elegran, that's your interpretation. Nothing is fact.

I am with you there, Caleo. The OT stories were repeated verbally many times before they were written down (so were the NT ones) and there are many variations of the same tales in other lands and religions. A lot of it was stories told round the fire by travellers, who brought with them the myths and legends they had heard on the way, edited here and there to be more relevant to the experiences and traditions of the people listening. They were a way of trying to answer the age-old questions like "How did we get started here?" and "What is the best way to live together in harmony?"
Once the stories of a powerful creator making life out of nothing took hold, it seemed important to the vulnerable listeners to try to please this almighty being, who could destroy as well as create, and so The Rules were formulated - and kept to the last letter by those fearful of angering him.

Elegran, I don't feel the historicity of events in Genesis matters and it's an error to try to understand the story as if it's scientific or historical.

Many grans would call me 'atheist' but the old Genesis creation story means to me that this life of change over time is a far cry from eternal truth, goodness and beauty.

Many Christians would not allow that I'm Christian and they may be right for all I know.

I understand that people such as Jesus of Nazareth showed ways to live in accordance with God and eternal goodness, truth ,and beauty.

HolySox

Caleo

Lillian, your informant was mistaken, God did not create the Cosmos; God is the Cosmos.

Old post but happy to respond if people are still interested.
Very first line of The Bible says " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". I think this means not just the physical universe but also the spiritual domains - He isn't 'the cosmos' (God in us). He is outside of His creation.

As a Christian I have to believe in the literal tale of Adam being created from dust with Eve created from Adam. They sinned and so are their descendants are in sin - separated from God (i.e. we no longer can 'know' him). The Bible also calls Jesus a 'second Adam' - we can be re-born through Jesus to know God. Basis of Christianity.

As for Cain's wife - Adam and Eve had other children, the Bible mentions Seth. I heard say their children were close to 'perfection' (newly created) so they could bear children without blemish. There is an ancient 'Book of Adam and Eve' that recalls them having 75 children but I don't know how reliable that book is.

The bible also says that Adam and Eve's sons wanted wives, so they "went in unto the children of men" so there must have been other people around as well as Adam and Eve and their family.

So Adam and Eve were not the first and only people created to live on earth.

The sory about Adam and Eve is part of a story that ancient people told in an effort to explain creation and mankind. The Adam and Eve story, especially the bit about the Expulsion from Eden is interesting for us in this scientific age because the ancient story explains that man is unhappily distanced from God .

Later, the New Testament explains how man may get back to God via Jesus Christ.

My father was sent to Sunday school three times a day and he didn't know the answer. It's simply a fiction to satisfy the uneducated and naive who are more inclined to believe in jam tomorrow religious twaddle.

Georgesgran

Not immediately Merlotgran but only a generation or so later. Talking about loved lost ones keeps their memory alive, but DGS2 born after my DH died won’t have any first hand knowledge - just stories from his mummy and me.
Maybe the phrase should be changed from forgotten to not remembered - if that’s more appropriate.

I don’t mean loved ones. History ensures that the only forgotten people are the ones we never heard of in the first place

Thanks for resurrecting (again!) a very interesting thread which I hadn't seen before. As people have said, the The Old Testament is a never ending mystery. It has multiple layers and threads, and you cannot just read a story and take it literally. There is much that is unsaid as well as what is said. Adam and Eve is such a fascinating story because we can never quite understand whether there is any truth in it or whether it was imagined to explain the mystery of creation.

Not immediately Merlotgran but only a generation or so later. Talking about loved lost ones keeps their memory alive, but DGS2 born after my DH died won’t have any first hand knowledge - just stories from his mummy and me.
Maybe the phrase should be changed from forgotten to not remembered - if that’s more appropriate.

It's the way people seem to pick and choose what bits of the bible they want to believe. Question any of it - such as the whole Adam and Eve thing - and they'll say, 'oh, it's just a story, it's not meant to be taken literally', then in the next breath, tell you' the bible says 'thou shalt not kill' or whatever to justify their arguments against abortion, as just one example.

Not forgotten though, surely?

Agree entirely with BlueBelle. I cannot fathom blind faith at all and don’t want to upset believers with my views. Unknown before birth and forgotten after death just about sums it up for me.

It must be lovely to have a solid belief very comforting to believe in life ever after etc etc I think it’s all to do with the brain and whether it has scientific or imagination leaning

All I can do is live by my own rules and I know I ve failed miserable many times and hope I live on in the minds of my children and grandchildren and then unless we ve done something spectacular ( like Stephen Hawkins or others who go down in history) your memory will be gone and no one will ever know you even existed ….An ant …. quite depressing really

This thread is interesting to me as it includes something I said in 2011 in one of my former incarnations. I didn't realise I had been on gransnet that long!