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Forgiveness (christian) - is it only possible if someone says sorry or can you forgive permanently without the "sorry" first

(102 Posts)
redblue Tue 10-Jan-12 16:55:39

Is forgiveness only possible if the other person who has cause the hurt says sorry? in other words if they dont say sorry (ever), don't appear to be sorry and just continues the behaviour is forgiveness (i) possible (ii) required?

In some cases it is easier to forgive someone if you dont have to have as much / any contact with them going forward - if this is impossible and you continue to have close contact with them is forgiveness even an option if there is no question (verbalised or in their behaviour) that they have done anything which might require forgiveness?

greenmossgiel Sun 05-Feb-12 17:29:55

*Greatnan, I understand. My own daughter estranged herself for 7 years. I couldn't understand what I'd done, only that she felt I hadn't stood up for her enough (against my partner who she didn't get on well with in later years). I would have done ANYTHING to get her back again. Eventually it seemed to fall into place when her own grandson was born. Very gradually, but it did happen. We've never spoken about it since and each time we leave each other we hug and tell each other we love each other. I could weep now, thinking about it.

Greatnan Sun 05-Feb-12 16:26:09

Chadsky - how lucky you are to have the chance to reunite your family. I am denied all contact with my daughter and I have done nothing wrong. I would happily forgive the awful things she has said about me , with or without an apology, if she would only give me the chance.

greenmossgiel Sun 05-Feb-12 09:40:40

chadsky, I agree. I don't see any point in 'nursing wrath to keep it warm'. Time flies away so quickly.

chadsky Sun 05-Feb-12 08:41:34

I guess I am a forgiving person - despite all that has happend - I hate discord in familes and would rather forgive ( obviously some apology and remorse has had to been shown) and go forward - than hold on to anger and hurt - I have had to forgive my son for his actions - for the sake of his daughter and all the family - we need to hold together in the situation - or lose the most precious thing in our lives - to me there is no contest.

absentgrana Sun 22-Jan-12 15:00:03

How I feel about something that someone has done to me or to someone I love is for me to choose and if I am wise, I shall not let my soul shrivel with bitterness and resentment. My forgiving that someone is first and foremost his/her responsibility as unless he/she is genuinely sorry for his/her action, then forgiveness would just be hollow. Even then, of course, I could choose not to forgive however contrite the culprit.

Greatnan Sun 22-Jan-12 06:14:39

I am so sorry to hear of your sad situation,Chadsky, and I hope your OH can somehow come round to forgiving your son. I am sure it is just his love for you that has made him so angry, but perhaps in time he will see that it is just making you more unhappy.
I don't think it is always possible to forgive someone who shows no remorse or continues to act badly - should the Nazi doctors who performed horrific experiments on humans have been forgiven?
I am afraid I am immune to anything said in the Bible or any other religious tract, as I consider them to be the writings of mere mortals, although they do, of course, contain some excellent sentiments, as does much poetry and literature.

chadsky Sun 22-Jan-12 05:45:16

Forgiveness - is special - The bible tells us that Christ says, that if we are slapped on the cheek we must turn the other cheek - He also said that we shoudl forgive those who wron gus - time and time again, I guess that is easiser with our children ( or should be - I have forgiven my son for the awful things that have happend) - but my husband ( his stepfather) cannot and will not even speak to him - and will not allow him in our house - so I am piggy in the middle - This is causing great harm to us as a family ( more than the event did) and is estranging everyone. and our own relationship is suffering to -
If we can all find the capacity to forgive i am sure the world would be a better place

Greatnan Wed 18-Jan-12 01:51:34

Dancingfeet - you have every right to be angry for as long as it takes.

dancingfeet Tue 17-Jan-12 18:37:28

All those lovely messages have made me smile.
I like the idea of reclaiming my true self and living life as I want it. I'm not sure either what my true self is, but I'm certain it is not this angry, screaming hariden(sp?)that I have recently turned into.

Annobel Tue 17-Jan-12 08:47:57

Does one ever really know oneself? I thought I did twelve years ago, then I retired and had to find another self. Still trying!

Carol Mon 16-Jan-12 22:19:07

Good for you Annobel. Everyone should spend some time getting to know themselves and how they really tick thanks

nanachrissy Mon 16-Jan-12 22:08:10

Annobel smile

Annobel Mon 16-Jan-12 21:36:09

It's been a long time for me - 26 years - and it took time to offload the bitterness. What I did was live my OWN life for a change; took part in local politics, went on my kind of holidays, had my own friends and so on. So my message is, reclaim your true self which has been stolen from you. It seems that you are already doing this. thanks

nanachrissy Mon 16-Jan-12 20:34:06

Dancingfeet that is exactly what happened to me, and I decided to get better,and it really worked! Only a couple of months ago, but I feel so much better,and strangely since then, "things" have improved in many ways! Is it the power of positive thinking maybe?

Cyril Mon 16-Jan-12 20:23:57

dancing feet it's good to hear that you are taking the first steps to get out from under the looming shadow of the past year. Little by little you are starting to reclaim your life. There were times when my children were told, "This is a black day" and love them all, they made allowance for me. So it begins with two steps forward and one step back. That's OK, it is still progress, and you will get better. You will also get stronger as you learn to deal with what has happened. Take good care of yourself. brew

dancingfeet Mon 16-Jan-12 18:33:59

Here I am just catching up, late as usual, with a very interesting topic and one that is close to my heart at the moment. I identified very much with what Cyril said about the anger and lack of forgiveness burning away inside your body so that the only person who is being hurt is yourself and not the offender or the betrayer. I too have lost weight because of it as I have to keep doing something active to dissipate the feelings. The ground is too frozen for me to dig at the moment so at last I have had a chance to look on the forum.
I am finding that I can neither forget or forgive, mainly because a part of me refuses to let it go. Somehow I feel that if I did, then I would be minimising a year of dreadful pain. This is of course nonsense, because all I am doing is guaranteeing that I have yet another year of dreadful pain.
I have read a couple of useful things recently which I am trying to apply(not easy). One is to 'aspire' to forgive if forgiveness feels impossible and the other is to accept rather than forgive as very few people in fact are capable of forgiveness.
The best yet though, and I have repeated it to myself several times today, like a mantra, is 'DO I GET BITTER OR DO I GET BETTER'.

emilyjo Sat 14-Jan-12 15:26:13

sometimes for me its hard to forget what people have don,e to me but easy to forgive,,

FlicketyB Thu 12-Jan-12 17:03:49

Thanks, Bagitha and the mail that followed. This thread is answering a question that has puzzled me for a long time.

GadaboutGran Thu 12-Jan-12 15:54:24

For me, forgiveness is a process driven by an 'aspiration' to forgive if I choose to do so when I choose to - for both selfish and altruistic reasons. I sometimes feel it is easier to forgive major things than the smaller everyday betrayals as it can be a grand act that puts you on the high moral ground, or used as a weapon as Joan suggests.
I think there are several levels of forgiveness - one needs the perpetrator to accept they have done wrong (rare, I fear), show remorse by actions as well as words and make reparation of some kind. Forgiving unconditionally is a much higher level which only very special people achieve. I stay at the bottom, wishing I could forgive but often don't really, long term & don't see why I should put in the hard work when the perpetrator does nothing.

My solution now is to say that if you can't get rid of a rotten tree then grow another so that it overshadows it and makes it increasingly less important in your life. The best thing to be done with anything bad is to redeem it through learning and to turn the bad into something good for yourself & others.
A few years ago I was in a research group with an amazing woman, Marian Partington, whose sister Lucy was one of Fred West's victims. She introduced me to the Forgiveness Project. Do have a look at their website
http://theforgivenessproject.com and read her long journey of discovering what forgivenss really means, beginning with her feelings of intense rage. She used the term 'lining yourself up for forgiveness'

nanachrissy Thu 12-Jan-12 15:47:53

I do love this little face confused

nanachrissy Thu 12-Jan-12 15:47:05

Thanks, Carol and Kitty, I will keep trying as I know bitterness is not good for the health!
Think I am just very tired at the mo due to much packing of boxes etc! confused

kittylester Thu 12-Jan-12 12:12:34

Carol Have lovely day tomorrow. I am just off out for a regular lunchtime meeting with 2 of my oldest friends (that's long lasting!!) and it is a lovely break from the day to day isn't it! smile

nannachrissy as Carol says, hope the bad feelings diminish enough for you to move on. thanks

grannyactivist Thu 12-Jan-12 10:38:26

For a 'real life' exploration of this topic I can recommend a book called 'Startling Beauty'. Not on Kindle yet I'm afraid, but can be bought for 1p plus postage on Amazon.
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1842911856/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

Carol Thu 12-Jan-12 10:18:52

nanachrissy I hope things move on for you. We have a saying in my family, when we have been hurt but it was not deliberate - 'just give me some time to come to terms with it - I'll come round without water.' When feelings are quite raw, it does take time to get your head round what's happened, doesn't it, especially when the effect on you has been devastating. I hope that, in time, the betrayal you have referred to diminishes for you.

nanachrissy Thu 12-Jan-12 10:01:32

Carol enjoy your day tomorrow, it sounds like fun. smile