Faith schools?

I'm very encouraged by the reaction to my opening the subject. We can't escape our culture, but we don't have to follow it to the letter As soon as we start to look at what religion, of whatever colour, says about drugs, abortion, contraception, sex or whatever we are on shaky ground. Why can't we trust ourselves to reach the right direction without reference to the dictates of some external, invisible being, or those in whose hands is the interpretation of the "revelations" of this being. So often this is an exercise of power - nothing less.

Spot on, greatnan. Children learn (or don't learn) discipline at home before they ever go to school.

positive feedback (or is it negative?)

Probably, but it is much easier to impose discipline on children who come predominantly from well-organised homes with committed parents. The cycle is : school gets good reputation because parents believe church schools are better, , therefore attracts determined parents, parents ensure attendance, homework, etc. school gets good stats, gets even better reputation, attracts more parents................now try that in reverse.

could it be that there is a little more discipline in faith schools?

You are so right. Have you any idea how many cocktails are named after men of the cloth Greatnan? Bishop, Piscy Bishop, Parish Priest and Curate's Egg to name but a few.

Not to mention the Smugglers' Song:

Brandy for the parson, baccy for the clerk.

I did know one revver who was into the occasional spliff, but I would guess that if there are others, they would keep a low profile.

C of E Board of Social Responsibility made a submission in 2001 to decriminalise cannabis and they do some good work with addicts.
Catholic attitude is a bit unclear - taking drugs is not in itself immoral but it can become sinful in various circumstances.
Most priests I have known have been smokers and drinkers.

Re drugs: I think (I may be wrong) it was the church that designated certain drugs as immoral?

Nsube In Hammersmith & Fulham, Lady Margaret (C of E) and Sacred Heart (RC) are both heavily over-subscribed girls' schools.

The Church of England has been described as The Conservative Party at Prayer.
I am all for parental choice, but in pratice only those parents wealthy or determined enough have a choice of schools. For the rest, it is the local comp.
I do not see what schools of a particular denomination have to offer that they would not offer if they were secular. I think it is imperative that children are taught about the various world religions and philosophies, ,but that should be an academic study and does not need to be done with a smattering of services and rituals - especially as we know that many parents have lied to get their children into these highly selective schools.
It is claimed that many faith schools are not exclusive and accept children of all faiths or none. If so, what happens to these outsiders during RE lessons/indoctrination? Are they still left to their own devices in the library?

As I said above in London most faith schools are almost completely black and ethnic minority. The white middle class parents aren't pushing to get their children in them even if they live on the doorstep.

Yes, faith schools do have a lot to offer. So do fee paying schools, grammar schools and comprehensives in wealthy middle class areas. But many schools in this country fail the children who are forced, through having no other option, to attend them (it's not a question of parental choice - few parents actively choose to send their children to poor schools). Since the founder of Christianity concerned himself with the downtrodden and despised of society, I find it somewhat ironic that Christianity has now become in many respects (including faith schools) an upholder and perpetuator of social division and inequality. For many people, faith schools are just another route in the scramble for good education.

Well said, Jeni

I think Eire may be very different from England! I was not indoctrinated by either school!
Funnily enough I was a governer of a local C of E school for a couple of years and found the information on other faiths, both impartial and informative. I actually donated some items to their comprehensive collection of artefacts used by other faiths from my collection!
Faith schools do have a lot to offer! I think that to condemn them out of hand is showing bigotry! At the end of the day it is the parents right and choice as to how THEIR children should be educated!
Is this not what democracy and freedom of choice is all about?

While I am not now affiliated with any religious group, I was brought up as a Christian and still find comfort in the services, esp in the music. Have just tried Google to find the source of a quote from an aetheist who was asked why he still participated in C of E services. "I believe in the rituals of my tribe," he explained. Works for me!

Hypocrisy and religion, Annobel? Perish the thought.

it's such hypocrisy to support 'faith' schools at the same time as deploring sectarian divisions in Northern Ireland and other parts of our country.

So-called Faith Schools are State Schools. Only a tiny proportion of their funding comes from the churches (about 10% of the capital cost, or even less). The rest of the capital cost and the staff salaries are paid by taxpayers as with non-faith schools.

"If there was no demand there would be no faith schools"

The government ignores most parental demands. Why cater to faith schools?

I doubt a Jewish, Muslim or atheist child found the nuns at your convent school "lovely" or could freely discuss their own beliefs in those classrooms. Were there any? Did they sit outside the classroom door during RE?

So many London families are desperate for decent schools. Jut local schools. Not schools that discriminate against the non-religious and minority-religions.

To many of us, a "grammar school which was high Protestant" does sound like a faith school. I'm truly sorry it wasn't lovely like your convent school, which offered an excellent education to those lucky enough to be Christian.

I recall raising a young family in London decades ago, when we had that local choice, and families met each other which strengthed the sense of community in a very diverse area. It's sad how that's been lost.

I don't notice any clamour from middle class patents to get their children in to the RC and C of E schools on London which are predominantly between. 90% and 100% black or ethnic minority. I wonder why.

You are obviously a lot younger than I am, jeni. I went to catholic junior and convent grammar schools and was constantly indoctrinated. One girl was expelled for saying she was not sure the believed in God. We were not allowed to question anything and had no education whatsoever about sex or relationships. If you wanted to do 'A' level biology, you had to go out to the local Technical College because the Irish nuns were too afraid of sex to offer it in the school.
Faith schools are over subscribed because the parents who fight to get their children into them, sometimes lying in their teeth to do it, are committed and interested. The actual religious aspect is immaterial - they are just highly socially selective.
There are very few actual 'State' primary schools - if you live in a village the local school will almost certainly be C of E or catholic. You can withdraw your child from actual RE lessons and services, but they are unlikely to be offered anything to occupy their time usefully.
Sunday schools and evening classes can be provided by the local religious community an nobody would object.
Single faith schools perpetuate divisions and exclusion.

I went to a convent as an infant and junior. My parents were technically c of e.
The education was excellent and the nuns lovely. I went to the friary school Lichfield as a grammar school which was high Protestant. I had more indoctrination from them than the nuns. I hated it and left after o levels and went to tech for my a levels.
State schools can be just as bigoted as faith schools. I think it is a decision for the parents to make!
If there was no demand there would be no faith schools.

Faith schools may be excellent in many respects but they do have an unfortunate reputation for letting in children of basically non-religious parents who want a good education for their children and are prepared to attend church to get it. My daughter refused to do this, on the grounds that it was corrupt and immoral, and her son, who had been at nursery school at a faith school, had to go elsewhere when he was five. Don't like that aspect of it. Also there are other ways that faith schools select preferred pupils and recently they were criticised for excluding children who were living in care homes. Not very Christian!

I know this is harsh, but I detest faith schools.

Why do they exist? Do we need to circumscribe children's education to avoid exposing them to 'unclean' practices or 'heretical' ideas? Shouldn't our children learn as much as possible about our society, its diversity, the wider world?

Why segregate children by religion? No local area can cater to all faiths and non-faiths. Why separate children this way? Why condemn some children to grow up in an official school-sanctioned minority?

It astonishes me that these faith schools still receive support from the state. Can't parents use afterschool & weekend classes to instruct their children in personal matters of their family faith?

Perhaps because I belong to a minority religion, but I can see no good in these schools, even those of my faith.

It is theoretically legal to carry out an abortion in Ireland if the woman's life at stake. Not if she is a child who has been raped for instance! Otherwise it is still essential to travel if you want one.
Divorce is also legal in theory but the legislation seems designed to make it difficult, longwinded and expensive with no benchmarks about financial settlements and no transparency about settlements that have been granted.