Thanking God, when it was really science that helped.

I am going to say we don't know. Of course we don't. Well, I don't, anyway. I don't know why the Aids virus exists, or why dreadful things happen to little children. I don't know a lot of things.

But faith kicks in.

It's the "Love that wilt not let me go". I'm not clever enough to explain it.

I do respect that jingl and am happy that this thing called faith is a part of your life - but to those who have no experience of this, what you are saying is completely incomprehensible - you could be talking Klingon!

All we have is the evidence of our own eyes and our intellect.

And I cannot help but think that, if there were a supreme being, he/she would be more likely to make their presence, aims and thoughts a little less opaque and open to misinterpretation. There would not be so many religions if this were the case - why would a supreme being wish to leave us all in this muddle? - seems a bit perverse to me.

Like you I don't know a lot of things (well, most things really!), particularly the fundamentals - why not nothing? etc - but I approach it all with the idea of embracing that not-knowing as part of the human condition. I do not seek external answers, because I know that the external answers that generations have come up with have often been wrong and misguided. I can only deal with what we have a what we see around us - and live as decently as possible.

One member said on another thread that life was pointless without faith. Who said that there had to be a point in living? I just accept that I am here and I am going to be as happy as I can for my time on earth because I know this is all I am ever going to have.

Yes, it's odd how so many seem to think there has to be a purpose to life, the universe and everything. We human tend to want a purpose for this and that but there doesn't have to be one, really. And there not being one, or not caring if there is one or not, doesn't make a scrap of difference to me. It's great being so free!

Bags, you may not have noticed your 'purpose'. But I bet the cubs have.

We've all got a purpose.

Anything the Cubs notice is 'effect', not purpose, in my opinion.

It's both!

I've yet to hear an answer to the riddle of Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

I too reacted with anger to the footballer's statement. But then it happens all the time - every time you see the word 'miracle' in a newspaper report it's happening again...

How nice that god wasn't too busy with the dying children in the Horn of Africa or some other minor human problem to save the life of a footballer.

Well - the last two posts have really said the same thing in very different ways.

Epicurus' highly pithy riddle succinctly sums it all up - but takes no account of something called faith (which is a closed book to me) - that is the overriding factor because it does not rely on logic. That is not to denigrate this phenomenon - if it is meaningful to someone then it is real.

But I'm with absentgrana and Epicurus.

God is not omnipotent.

If only.

No. The ancient gods had all the human foibles and faults with a vengeance and were certainly not omnipotent (though I daresay they liked to think they were, if you see what I mean) so it makes perfect sense that modern gods (NB that's plural) aren't either. Really it isn't the gods that are the riddle but people and faith. Nothing new then.

[shaking head]emoticon.BAGS

Chuckle. I'll never "get it", jeni! One myth is the same as any other to me. I've never had any faith, try as I would when I was younger.

Lost cause, me .

I'm a handful of cells. I'm here for a very short time. I shall cease to exist [except in someone's memory] when my cells decide to quit and throw in the towel. I shall become particals of dust and stuff that will be recycled...I've no need to fear hell [that I can make for myself here on earth] and I have no need to hope for heaven...on a day such as this, sun shining, birds singing, wind whispering, flowers blooming, husband preparing a tasy lunch, I'm in my heaven on earth.

soop! That's just what my son tells me! (about being just cells and electrical impulses. (or something)

I don't know whether to believe him or not.

There's just this inside bit of me........ It's the bit that makes me feel connected somehow to the sun on the grass.

I'll go and clean the shed out.

We're all connected...jingl every partical connected to make a whole. Every atom just keeps recycling...ad infinitum.
Shed cleaning is theraputic. When I'm well enough, I shall enjoy de-cluttering ours. Come to think of it, husband asked me to give him a job for this afternoon. I was about to sigh...Oh no, dear, you've done enough for one day...now I know better

I saw a picture of Muamba with the two doctors (who ran onto the pitch) and who operated on him . It was in the times I think.

soop and imjingl - Isn't it great? We're composed of starstuff - all the elements and compounds in us started as hydrogen atoms in stars and when those stars exploded the elements were scattered out across the cosmos and some of them eventually accreted into the pale blue dot that's our planet (the only planet that we can reliable say has chocolate - and that in itself is pretty cool!), some of those elements formed into compounds and some of those compounds became bits of us! Just that in itself fills me with delight and awe, without all the other amazing wonders of the cosmos. How pretentious and egocentric of us to think there must be some meaning to our lives beyond what we as interdependent individuals make of them? When we die our electrical and chemical processes cease, and whether we're buried or cremated we go back to being that useful starstuff ready to be recycled again and again. And we have chocolate!

PoppaRob

Couldn't have put it better myself PoppaRob!

The problem we have is imagining the extinction of ourselves and our loved ones, so it is not surprising that we seek other answers. We are probably the only beings who know that we are dispensable, and we have such a strong sense of self that it can be a struggle not to hope for something more.

Working for many years with people with head injury gave rise to many philosophical thoughts about what "self" is - it was very clear that people changed fundamentally when their brains were damaged, not just in their abilities, but in their personalities. They were very different "selves" after their injury to before. I was forced to conclude that we really are just a collection of cells and chemical processes, some of which are either congenitally or by conditioning more acceptable/affable/jolly/miserable or whatever - and that changing those processes (by injury or by drugs) changes who we are. It is also interesting that recent research suggests that there is a genetic element to religious belief - i.e. some people's cells/atoms or whatever are programmed to be attracted to religious ideas. I must have been in the back row when they were handed out!!

I too fear that religion can be "pretentious and egocentric" to assume that there should be some meaning to our lives - the meaning for me is simply to care and enjoy. I am blown away by the idea that any creator being might have the remotest interest in individuals - it truly does seem arrogant to me.

We are at a loss to explain the sense of awe and wonder that we all feel in response to beauty/love/art etc - but it really does seem to be chemical and not related to some postulated "soul." I saw that with brain-injured people very clearly.

PS The idea that we are simply a collection of cells etc does not mean that we do not value and celebrate the dignity and preciousness of every human being - I know that it is hard for some religious people to understand that, as they seek value in our "godliness."

PoppaRob...precisely and yes, isn't it AWESOME...

...did someone mention chocolate!!!