Ramadan Question

jeni, under their law a man had to marry his brother's widow and impregnate her. Any children born would take precedence over his children already born and would be considered as the children of his brother.
Onan did not want this to happen, so he practised coitus interruptus and 'spilled his seed on the ground'. At least, that is the way I have always heard the story interpreted, but I suppose he might have masturbated to make himself unable to perform with the widow. The result was the same - no baby for the widow!

[greatnan] only just seen your post! I always thought onanism referred to male masturbation, not withdrawal?
What I have seen referred to as 'Madam Thumb, and her four daughters!'

The Sally Army do, in fact, do a lot of practical good, such as running night shelters and mobile canteens.

There was an interesting situation in our market place today. A group of youngish people had set up a trestle table with bible tracts and a banner proclaiming that they could tell us what the bible really teaches. Just a bit further on was a Salvation Army man with a collecting box and carrying the War Cry [I think that's what their paper is called]. It just came into my head that the trestle table ones were just talking about it whilst the Salvation Army guy was actually doing something about it - and I gave him a small donation. He actually said 'Thank you and God Bless You' and it almost made me cry and I am someone who is no longer religious.

Thanks, Joan, I really enjoyed that article. I can never understand why people who think there is 'something' 'somewhere' watching our every move and caring about us still pour scorn on black magic, voodoo, tribal gods, etc. There is just as much evidence for them as there is for any of the 'correct' religions. ( i.e. none).

Talking about a huge influence, one American blogger I read in the Huffington Post reckons that if you believe in religion you believe in the supernatural and therefore in magic, and thus you will believe anything, even the dangerous nonsense of the Republican party: Here it is:

www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/todd-akin-republicans_b_1826617.html?utm_hp_ref=daily-brief?utm_source=DailyBrief&utm_campaign=082412&utm_medium=email&utm_content

Lilygran religion matters so much, because it still has a HUGE influence on how so many laws and institutions are run. We still have a large proportion of CofE Bishops in the House of Lords, education and the judiciary are still strongly influenced by religion. People who are not believers are still expected to live by the tenets of religion- like those who suffer from terrible terminal diseases and can't be set free of pain, etc, etc. If religion was something purely personal, without such a large influence on every day life- it wouldn't matter to me at all.
Unless of course it imposes painful or dangerous ways on their children.

One thing that JWs really hate is Jesus' brothers and sisters. Actually Catholics aren't too keen either and have demoted them to cousins, I think.

I have found that I know more about catholicism than most practising catholics as I gained distinction in the GCE set by the Conference of Catholic Colleges. I have explained that the only reference to contraception in the bible is about the 'Sin of Onan' who 'spilled his seed on the ground' (i.e. withdrawal method) and that this was nothing to do with sex and everything to do with denying his brother's widow her rights under their law.
Many people believe that an insincere confession will gain them absolution but a confessor has to have a 'firm purpose of amendment' - i.e. really mean not to do it again - I wonder how the abusive priests squared this with their conscience?
Jesus had many women disciples but they were written out of history by the me who took over. Priests were allowed to marry for hundreds of years and were forbidden only to save the church having to maintain their wives and children and to make sure the church got all their assets. Nothing to do with sex.
Virgin birth was claimed for the prophets of many religions and again has nothing to do with sex being sinful. It was based on ignorance of the process of conception. It was believed that a man planted a complete homunculus in a woman which would grow into a human being - she was just an incubator. Thus, a child born to a virgin would have no earthly parent and must be divine.
I used to enjoy talking to JW's and giving them back chapter and verse to disprove their beliefs. You can find almost anything in the bible, much of it contradictory. It is all great fun!

I don't like people coming round trying to sell me religion - eg JWs, but paradoxically I'm glad I went to Sunday School and did bible studies, because that has given me all the knowledge and intellectual armour I need against their daftness.

I think children should learn what Christianity is, the words of the Lord's Prayer, a couple of psalms, and some bible study. This is because such knowledge is needed to understand many references in literature, and much of our history. It also makes people better informed atheists, when they know exactly what they are up against. And if they choose to believe - well, fair enough. They will not have been denied informed choice.

Religion definitely matters. Sometimes one wishes it could just slip quietly into the background, so to speak (not talking about banning it), but organised religions, especially the Abrahamic ones, seem intent on proselytising. I'm talking generally, of course, about organisations, not about individuals who may hold this or that belief.

Lily, perhaps you could explain the circumstances so we can judge for ourselves? Freedom matters, which includes my freedom not to be subjected to other people's religious beliefs against my wishes. I am afraid I do not see religion as a harmless delusion - I see great injury being caused to millions worldwide in the name of it. Perhaps the people currently in charge of these religions are not acting according to the tenets of the founder, but the fact remains that religion is being used as the excuse for so much harm.

I like your attitude, Joan! Greatnan suppose it wasn't the situation you describe? And why does religion matter so much, if it doesn't matter?

I would get annoyed if someone talked religion at work, but I would not complain officially. I'd just tell the person to leave it alone.

I was talking about the UK with those examples. There are certainly laws in some states of America where particular, but not uncommon sexual acts between consenting heterosexual adults are classed as illegal.

Of course secular laws are concerned with not disrupting society; they are also concerned with facilitating the smooth running of it. That doesn't mean that all laws are fair or even well written. Lots of religious laws – circumcision, not eating crab, not using contraception, for example – do neither of these things.

The law legalising homosexual acts between consenting adults was a huge step forward, even if the age of consent was still higher than that for hetrosexuals.
I don't know of any case where a person has lost their job for merely talking about Christianity at work - perhaps it was a case of someone in a position of power trying to force their opinion on someone else. I know I would be extremely annoyed if I were in hospital and any medical professional tried to convert me! I was once asked my religion by a hospital clerk and when I said 'None' she said she would put C of E. She could not understand why I was annoyed.

Absent - most secular laws (and religious laws) are based on controlling what society thinks is likely to cause disruption. There may not be secular laws controlling copulation in this country (not sure that's true!) but there certainly are elsewhere. It's OK to ban women from wearing the niqab, then?

Lilygran The Singapore chewing gum law was brought in because of the nastiness of old gum on the pavements and the expense of cleaning it off. Frankly, I should like to see such a law here. However, it actually resulted in there being chewing gum smugglers! That law no longer exists in Singapore.

It depends how you talk about Christianity – or any other religion – to a work colleague. Evangelism in the workplace is not and shouldn't be acceptable.

France has indeed introduced what are clearly anti-Muslim laws however much they try to disguise the fact. But it is the niqab not the headscarf that's the issue.

Most secular laws are concerned with the good of society: anti theft, rape, assault, murder, fraud, etc; pro education, healthcare, traffic safety etc. There don't seem to be secular laws about when you may copulate (expect to protect children), what foodstuffs you can eat, when you can eat them, etc.

I don't think chewing gum is available in Singapore! I wish it was had never been invented. Just look down at any pavement in this country and see the blobs ground into the concrete and so very difficult to remove.

I believe you can be arrested in Singapore for dropping chewing gum on the street. This isn't for a religious reason but just because the Singaporean government thinks making anti-social activity against the law is a way of repressing it. Think ASBO. In this country you can lose your job for talking about Christianity to a colleague and in France you can lose your job if you wear a headscarf. Secular rules are purely and simply about controlling people and preventing them from doing many harmless things which society frowns on at the moment.

I agree, joan. It will seem as if I'm reducing things to the ridiculous when I say imagine arresting someone for eating a pastie out of a paper bag, but my purpose in doing that is to reduce the thing to its bare essentials. Religious rules are purely and simply about controlling people and preventing (usually – how many religious rules are 'ennabling'?) them from doing perfectly harmless things or restricting their freedom to act in ways they deem to be best for them.

I used to work with an Asian catholic girl from Malaysia. She had previously worked in a Muslim area, as an insurance assessor before marrying an Australian serviceman and moving to Queensland. Anyway, during Ramadan in Malaysia she sat down on a park bench to eat her lunchtime sandwiches and got hauled off to jail by the cops for eating during the fast!! She had no means on her of proving she was not a Muslim, and it took ages for a family member to come and rescue her. Very upsetting!

My personal view is that any religion or religious practice that has to be enforced rather than done freely, is worthless.

As an atheist I do not comprehend religious belief, but I would never try to take away anyone's rights to worship, but in the same vein I feel everyone should have the right to ignore it all. In other words, even if my workmate HAD been a Muslim they had no right to arrest her imho.

There's at least one, jess, in the Norwegian part.

Yes Muslims do use Mecca time if they live in areas of extended /reduced daylight!