Religion can be good for your mental health

I really don't think that anyone commits atrocities because of religious beliefs. IMO they do so in the name of that belief but not because the religion preaches that they should. The religion is just an excuse, think of N. I. where both sides are Christians.

I think that's what I meant, Alison.
Greatnan, I was brought up in the Church of Scotland, a very liberal institution at the time, and I don't think my general ethical approach to life has changed at all since I decided I had outgrown belief.

OH for goodness sake!

I just didn't want jess's post to go unanswered.

I SO agree with you there Alison.

Not sure you can apply it to Islamic extremists though. They seem to have the atrocious stuff written into their shirea (sp?) law.

sharia law (googled it)

But even Sharia law is 'interpreted' differently by different Muslim sects /individuals.

In the same way that Jewish food laws are interpreted differently, Christian groups also do this which is why there are so many different Christian sects.

It is, mostly men, IMO, getting a power base. That is what organised religion is..a way to control people..sometimes benignly sometimes insidiously.

jane and * lily*, understood! I'm not sure I would call it faith, but rather an acceptance of what is known to be true with a good dash of wariness thrown in preserve oneself from trolls. But that's a matter of semantics rather than of understanding, perhaps. I suppose I'm wary of faith because it can mean belief in things for which there is no discernible real world evidence. I'm not saying it always means that, but I avoid the word because of that, to me, negative connotation.

Belief in a supreme being isn't characteristic of all religions. Some forms of Buddhism don't have that concept. I thought I would toss in the post about the research because I so much enjoy the robust debate that any mention of religion, the USA and some other topics produces. Although, when I think about it, 'debate' hardly describes the almost universal consensus on these topics on Gransnet. IMO ( see, I'm learning the language!) attacking rubbishing anyone's most fundamental beliefs is a bit like telling them their baby is ugly.

I am comfortable with the Buddhist philosophy. Very happy for others to believe what they will.

Yes. I like the sound of Buddhism.

Bags I hope you all have a lovely afternoon in Glasgow not sure if it's today or tomorrow.
Lilygran I was quite upset by this article a couple of weeks ago in the Telegraph, which rather does take religious faith to damaging extremes.
For those who can't be bothered to follow the link, doctors have become concerned that parents of terminally ill children who hold evangelist beliefs are trying to persuade doctors to prolong their children's treatment, believing that a miracle will take place, long after all hope has gone.

You can't do anything about an ugly baby - you can choose your belief!

DD2 was the ugliest baby in the ward. Wouldn't have swapped her for any of the others though. She's beautiful now.

Lily - how can I tell you that I don't share your fundamental beliefs without upsetting you?

'Pretty in the cradle, plain at the table
Plain in the cradle, pretty at the table'

Was always a nonsense rhyme trotted out when a mum worried their new baby looked a bit squashed and blotchy!

I thought my DD1 was the most beautiful baby in the world... she was big, squashed, bruised and blotchy! But she was my beautiful baby!

I'm not upset, Greatnan . I hope to make the point that faith is not, for the faithful, simply a lifestyle choice. It isn't, to them, a matter of opinion like which political party they support. I think the forceful use of derogatory terms about other's beliefs can be very hurtful and does not encourage universal peace and understanding.

Lily I like both your last posts. Thank you.

I think that lack of choice is the most frightening thing about religious faith, for atheists, lily. Certainly I feel that one should be able to choose to have or not have any religious faith. If it is not a choice, we are not educating youngsters properly. I'm in favour of religious education in schools for that reason. Education is the operative word. Indoctrination shouldn't raise its head.

I know it is difficult for people with faith to feel that they can renounce the religion they were brought up with (they may not want to anyway). It's difficult even for people without faith to do that, but the good news is that it's getting easier, because of education. That can only be good.

But, to be honest, I probably don't really know what faith is. I don't think I've ever had any even though I was brought up in a Catholic family and was sent to Catholic schools. I played the game while I had to but I was always baffled by real faith. Always asking myself "I wonder how they do that?" when people clearly believed something I didn't believe, however many times I was told I should, and however many times I tried to do it.

I suspect that, in a similar way, many, possibly most, people with some religious faith don't understand the total absence of it in others.

Lily - I don't know how to say that I think a belief is wrong without your telling me I am being derogatory. I cannot see any gray area here - you believe and I don't. Why should I be less offended when you say you don't agree with my unbelief? Of course, I am quite used to being told I cannot be a moral person without some faith - believe me, you get used to it.
I have no reason to believe that you are anything but a kind, honest, all-round good person - I just think that the power in which you believe does not exist. Without lying in my teeth, I can say no other.

Thanks for the good wishes for tomorrow, jane. I'm sure we'll have a ball!

Bags - I did have faith for most of my childhood and I would leave confession feeling that I would not mind being run over and killed because I would go straight to heaven. When a much loved aunt died and I was told that she would have to burn in purgatory in agony to atone for her sins, I began to question and of course I was not given any rational answers.
In some ways I can understand that some people have a need to believe in something more powerful than themselves - once you realise your parents are not omniscient it can be a bit frightening. My father told my superstitious Irish catholic mother that he envied her belief but could not share it. I don't envy believers - I would rather face the fact that we are here for no good reason and when we die it is over. It helps me to make the most of the one life I have.

Where and when did the idea of purgatory evolve! Does the church still believe in it?

It always surprises me how vocal the atheists among us are on any thread which touches on religion, not just threads decrying extremist atrocities in the name of religion. I take your point, Lilygran, about the difficulty of debating a subject such as the one in the OP.