Religion can be good for your mental health

They haven't sold indulgences since the 15th century! Many very bad things have been done in the name of the church(es), ditto political parties, land-grabbing, the search for gold......almost makes you believe in original sin!

I think denying condoms to African women is an extreme atrocity. It has probably killed more than suicide bombers.

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Indulgences were a good source of income - do what you like but make a big contribution and everything will be forgiven. A bit like contributions to political parties by criminals like Asil Nadir. No favouritism - all the major parties have had donations from villains.

jeni if a religion involves a power base (and if one ever did, it was the RCC in earlier centuries) they tend to elaborate the ways in which they build their control.
If anyone less than perfect goes straight to hell it limits control. By having different grades of after life it opens the door to all kinds of nonsense e.g. saying masses for the dead. Now if they are dead and in heaven - then no need for masses is there. If they are eternally damned, same applies. Waste of time and money. But if they might be in purgatory then a whole new income stream is made possible for the business. Pay for masses for the dead on their birthday, the anniversary of their death etc etc.
This still goes on. I'm sure some of you can think of other commercial opportunities that spun off from the notion of purgatory!

Er....not sure how we can contribute to any thead without being vocal - surely that is the whole point of a debate?
No, purgatory and limbo have been consigned to.....well, limbo! I expect the bans on abortion, contraception and married priests will follow suit in due course, but unfortunately not before many more lives have been lost.
Once any tenet of the faith reaches the 'tipping point' at which more adherents disapprove than approve, the church will be pragmatic. It will cling on to power (and riches) no matter what it takes.

I am an atheist and a humanist - they do overlap, of couse, but I think you could be an atheist and have no interest in humanism.

I am an atheist but prefer to give my attitude to 'life, the universe and everything' a more accurate name by calling myself a humanist and if you need a definition you will find it on this site:

www.humanism.org.uk/humanism

Since I finally came out as an atheist I have felt very happy indeed. I have fought with the contradictions of Christianity and a God of Love(?) a large part of my life and now nothing but 'heavenly' peace of mind. Lovely!

Bags it completely and totally easy to understand anyone not having faith!

It always surprises me how vocal the atheists among us are on any thread which touches on religion, not just threads decrying extremist atrocities in the name of religion. I take your point, Lilygran, about the difficulty of debating a subject such as the one in the OP.

Where and when did the idea of purgatory evolve! Does the church still believe in it?

Bags - I did have faith for most of my childhood and I would leave confession feeling that I would not mind being run over and killed because I would go straight to heaven. When a much loved aunt died and I was told that she would have to burn in purgatory in agony to atone for her sins, I began to question and of course I was not given any rational answers.
In some ways I can understand that some people have a need to believe in something more powerful than themselves - once you realise your parents are not omniscient it can be a bit frightening. My father told my superstitious Irish catholic mother that he envied her belief but could not share it. I don't envy believers - I would rather face the fact that we are here for no good reason and when we die it is over. It helps me to make the most of the one life I have.

Thanks for the good wishes for tomorrow, jane. I'm sure we'll have a ball!

Lily - I don't know how to say that I think a belief is wrong without your telling me I am being derogatory. I cannot see any gray area here - you believe and I don't. Why should I be less offended when you say you don't agree with my unbelief? Of course, I am quite used to being told I cannot be a moral person without some faith - believe me, you get used to it.
I have no reason to believe that you are anything but a kind, honest, all-round good person - I just think that the power in which you believe does not exist. Without lying in my teeth, I can say no other.

I suspect that, in a similar way, many, possibly most, people with some religious faith don't understand the total absence of it in others.

I think that lack of choice is the most frightening thing about religious faith, for atheists, lily. Certainly I feel that one should be able to choose to have or not have any religious faith. If it is not a choice, we are not educating youngsters properly. I'm in favour of religious education in schools for that reason. Education is the operative word. Indoctrination shouldn't raise its head.

I know it is difficult for people with faith to feel that they can renounce the religion they were brought up with (they may not want to anyway). It's difficult even for people without faith to do that, but the good news is that it's getting easier, because of education. That can only be good.

But, to be honest, I probably don't really know what faith is. I don't think I've ever had any even though I was brought up in a Catholic family and was sent to Catholic schools. I played the game while I had to but I was always baffled by real faith. Always asking myself "I wonder how they do that?" when people clearly believed something I didn't believe, however many times I was told I should, and however many times I tried to do it.

Lily I like both your last posts. Thank you.

I'm not upset, Greatnan . I hope to make the point that faith is not, for the faithful, simply a lifestyle choice. It isn't, to them, a matter of opinion like which political party they support. I think the forceful use of derogatory terms about other's beliefs can be very hurtful and does not encourage universal peace and understanding.

'Pretty in the cradle, plain at the table
Plain in the cradle, pretty at the table'

Was always a nonsense rhyme trotted out when a mum worried their new baby looked a bit squashed and blotchy!

I thought my DD1 was the most beautiful baby in the world... she was big, squashed, bruised and blotchy! But she was my beautiful baby!

Lily - how can I tell you that I don't share your fundamental beliefs without upsetting you?

DD2 was the ugliest baby in the ward. Wouldn't have swapped her for any of the others though. She's beautiful now.

You can't do anything about an ugly baby - you can choose your belief!

Bags I hope you all have a lovely afternoon in Glasgow not sure if it's today or tomorrow.
Lilygran I was quite upset by this article a couple of weeks ago in the Telegraph, which rather does take religious faith to damaging extremes.
For those who can't be bothered to follow the link, doctors have become concerned that parents of terminally ill children who hold evangelist beliefs are trying to persuade doctors to prolong their children's treatment, believing that a miracle will take place, long after all hope has gone.

Yes. I like the sound of Buddhism.